Men -v- Women in the Workplace

[Jerry_Atrick]

I agree - we may be coming at it from different angles, but I think most of us agree that women should be heard as much as men and the process is fair. I think there was some suggestion people are getting on the bandwagon (was there someone who said they didn't know it was sexual assault at the time? All that means to me is that they thought it was condoned behaviour - regardless of what it was).

 

I refer to OME's story, which is devastating, as proof we have to encourage people to bring it out and not victimise/demonise ANYONE for doing so (unless it turns out to me maliciously false accusations).

 

 

[old man emu]

I'm all for the most stringent punishment of anyone who assaults or intimidates another, and I believe in equality between the genders. However, I'm also for the timely raising of the hue and cry.

 

If a person wants to be considered an adult member of society, with all the rights of adulthood, then they must also accept the responsibilities of adulthood, and in our society that includes the timely exposure of what we consider to be a crime.

 

I accept that a child has the same rights in this regard, but can be forgiven the meeting of responsibilities due to their lack of knowledge.

 

 

[Geoff13]

As I said there could be a lot of reasons for not reporting in a timely manner. That is why in Australia there is no Statute of Limitations for sexual assault.

 

From the Sydney Lawyers page on Statute of Limitations on Child Sexual Assault

 

"Sexual assault, including child sexual assault, is one area where there is often a significant delay in reporting. However, it is one category that often is tried a long time after the event because there may be good reasons for a victim to have kept silent.

 

For example, they may be too scared, ashamed or embarrassed to tell anyone, or they may think no-one would believe them anyway.

 

Sexual assault is often hard to prove or disprove at the best of times as there are usually no witnesses – so it often boils down to who is believed in court.

 

Incidents of sexual assault can be difficult to detect and prosecute due to the vast inequality between the victim and the defendant and the lack of material evidence such as CCTV footage and eye-witness statements.

 

It is no understatement to say that the effects of child sexual abuse can be life-long and scarring.

 

Many victims who have spoken out during the Royal Commission into child abuse have told stories of the terrible acts inflicted on them as children.

 

There has been a flood of new child abuse complaints during the Royal Commission into the data, many reaching back decades.

 

If a statute of limitations applied to sexual assault cases, it may have prevented some complainants who spoke out during the current inquiry into the Catholic Church from ever getting their cases heard or receiving compensation.

 

Legal reform and case-law have now removed the presumption that a failure to report immediately indicates a false allegation. However, victims of sexual assault who fail to speak up sooner can still face difficulties in getting their case heard."

 

Full report here

 

Child Sexual Assault and the Statute of Limitations in Australia

 

We must be very careful in saying that they should have come out sooner.

 

I as a Man would never profess to understand a woman so there is no way that I could understand the reasons for tardy reporting of offences.

 

But because I do not understand it does not make those reasons invalid.

 

Having said that, if down the track any of the reports prove to have no basis in fact and turn out to be malicious, then that should be treated as seriously as is possible.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

[edit] @Geoff13 got his reply in before me [/edit]

 

I agree and it is the question of what is timely. The fact that someone has committed a crime does not mean if it goes unreported, the person is somehow absolved of guilt - the crime was still committed and was committed by that person (and may be still being committed by that person). The problem is that the victim may feel implicitly or explicitly threatened by the perpetrator to the point they fear for their safety if they report it. They may feel they won't be taken seriously or told its just a part of life in that industry and get on with it. Or they are psychologically harmed that they can't relive it or the law enforcement system is such that they are forced to relive under extreme cross examination every minutiae of detail in a public forum, etc etc etc. Or maybe there's some family shame involved, etc. Timely will be different for different people and often involves coming forward after the death or disablement of the accused; or when others have because it forms some sort of support group.

 

If we want adults to come forward in a timely (i.e. speedy) way, we as a society have to create an environment that removes or mitigates a lot of barriers to do so. It is incumbent on all of us to do this - not just leave it to the government. This does not mean do as they have done in the UK - it means finding a balance where both parties can be treated fairly and with integrity - easier said than done.

 

As I mentioned, I have told both kids they can come to me for anything - and I won't go off half-cocked to the school, police or whatever. And importantly, I won't judge them. This has helped me maintain a good line of communication with my children when other parents complain their kids bottle up; and has resulted in them coming up with ways of dealing with thing using me to facilitate and suggest.

 

As an FYI, there are people in my family that I would not leave alone with my kids when they are younger (or with my daughter at all as she is still slight in physical build).

 

 

[octave]

Do you acknowledge at all that a junior employee complaining about a high flyer is taking a huge risk? In many workplaces, these people are known about but if they are a big earner for a company they tend to be more protected. The fact that some people are only now finding the courage to talk about these things does not mean that abuse that happened a few years ago is not important. I should not be that if you stick your hand down a co-workers pants and she or he does not complain straight away then you get away with it. The fact that some complaints don't surface for some time does not mean they are just making it up. I was reading of a case recently where a woman who had been a child actor was molested by a powerful person and even though the signs were obvious no one intervened. She only recently went public with this after seeing a picture of this creep with another young actor.and thought perhaps she could call him out and protect others from the same fate.

 

This is not a war on men it is a war on that minority of scumbags. Ask any female if they have ever been harassed in the street. The answer is for strong people male and female to call out such behavior. Often this behavior is trivialized. "If I say she has nice hair I will end up in court" The allegations, in this case, include having someone put their hand down a co-workers pants on stage but hidden from the audience's view. If it were one of my daughters (of which i have none) I would hope that whenever she felt she was able to find the strength to deal with the inevitable threats and online abuse that she would not be dismissed instantly as a golddigger or a vindictive. I have witnessed plenty of my time and tell plenty of stories but just one from my military days. The first woman in a particular unit, some men could not seem to cope with this so reacted by being pretty cruel. Whilst on the parade ground a tampon dipped in red paint was dropped behind her. She was 18 at the time and it was devastating but she felt that she could not do anything about it.

 

 

[facthunter]

Lets have a hypothetical. Go back a while. A boy is a bit fresh. Steals an unasked for kiss and the girl is not thrilled but thinks it's "normal".

 

At that time the boy thinks such an approach is expected of the male and the girl thinks it's not unusual but she's not interested. Is this a thing that should be made a lot of? While you might say no one would do anything about it someone else could make something of it.. Let's face it, women flirt too and are not just passive players in this game. If after a few dates the boy hasn't made some move she might think he's gay and not go out again with him... Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Whilst it is very noble to support and encourage victims of abuse/misconduct to 'come out', It is impossible to prevent the serious consequences of vexatious, or revenge claims. These can ruin an innocent accused's career. I have personally witnessed two instances of false claims (in two different large organisations). One of these was treated by HR as valid in spite of all workers knowing otherwise. The accused males were very poorly treated due to fear that the business might look like it was soft on sexual discrimination. The other instance the female concerned was in fact quite proud of her achievement which marred a couple of colleagues in spite of the HR decreeing that the complaint was unfounded. After that, most staff were afraid to work with her without a witness present.

 

A lot of damage was done. Had I not known the behaviour and attitudes of these females (and the accused), I would have forever harboured doubts about them, simply because mud sticks. Guilt by assumption.

 

On the other hand, I have seen another case where the accused was guilty but treated too lightly. The problem that I see is that since the nature of the events is often impossible to prove due to the lack of corroborating witnesses, it is impossible to be sure of fair judgement. And that DOES open the door to misuse by unscrupulous people (whether the accused or the accuser).

 

In no way do I justify the actions of predators. I'm just upset to see people misusing the system to their own advantage, whilst the worst individuals often slip through the cracks.

 

 

[Yenn]

Reading this I think back to my younger courting days. But then again I had better not, especially if my wife of 59 years get to see it.

 

 

[facthunter]

Thinking about it won't hurt much. Writing about it may..Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

An interesting perspective offered by Germaine Greere: Germaine Greer challenges #MeToo campaign