Thought for the day (1)

[Phil Perry]

Thought for the day:

 

Both Brexit and the election of Trump in the US illustrate the divergence between an elite which serves to enrich itself and lives in a 'Gated Community' bubble,. . somewhat insulated from the consequences of its decisions on the one hand, and a broader, usually poorer, population who have to suffer the consequences of the elites’ decisions. . . seemingly regardless, in some cases, of their democratic votes cast.

 

I believe that there remains a significant section of the European population, ( usually the better off financially. . .) who are currently insulated from the consequences of the elites’ decisions. . . but that they either delude themselves that they will always be insulated from ‘the bad things’ they see in reports via assorted media. . . or live in fear of one day finding themselves outside the gates also.

 

My contention is that in the long term the number of people who will be able to live insulated lives, insulated as they are, by their gates and security guards,. . . protected from the adverse consequences of the elites’ decisions will be very substantially smaller than the number who currently imagine themselves in this category. . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Insulating yourself from the "unclean" is not new. Knowing how to set the table and other such "contrived manners" things separate the great unwashed from the aristocracy. The Brits do Pomp and Ceremony better than any other. (I give that to them) and it's a valuable Tourist Industry Component. BUT worth by inheritance is a falsity leading mainly to inbreeding ..America proclaims " ALL Men are born equal" but doesn't get close to living it.. USA has no Royalty. Money has taken the place of most other things as the means to get what you want. USA worships money, cloaked in God. GOD want's you to be rich. (Not sure where that's spelled out in the bible, that few actually read but most believe is the actual word of God) There's money in WAR. God works in mysterious ways so God want 's you to make war?

 

And they reckon the Iranians are NUTS.? I reckon they both have a NUT system. which has become corrupted. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Corrupted system?

 

Where are we going?

 

We had the media run government bringing in same sex marriage and I forecast that they would then expand their control of government. Now the next cab off the rank is Change Australia Day. They are saying nobody cares and they may be close to right, but if we stop caring, we will lose any chance of sensible government.

 

Remember to re read this post in a years time and see what has happened.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...the next cab off the rank is Change Australia Day. They are saying nobody cares and they may be close to right, but if we stop caring, we will lose any chance of sensible government...

I think it's one of Australia's strengths that we can question our national "holy cows" (in many countries you can still be locked up or stoned to death for less).

 

Why do we celebrate 26th January, when 1300 miserable wretches arrived on our shores, guarded by a few hundred who probably hated the place?

 

Why not celebrate 1st January 1901, when the mother country set us free to govern ourselves?

 

NYE is arguably the biggest party of the year- why not build on it?

 

Similarly, why do we celebrate 25 April, the start of a disastrous defeat? Why not the date of the Battle of Isurava, when a bunch of ordinary Aussies did awsome things to defend their country?

 

Better still, why not ditch the military theme and commemorate something like Don Bradman's double century?

 

 

[facthunter]

Australia day was not always what it is now. It's been changed before. so It can change again. It's based on an incorrect presumption and the purpose was to isolate undesirables in a hell hole, far away from the Home country.. Hardly event that one would shout about . and be proud of.. The place wasn't terra nullius. It had the longest occupation by a people in the history of the earth who were still there.

 

That FACT we will have to come to grips with. The nature of the error/ falsity is such as to require redress sooner rather than later . Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

I'll agree with my pinko commie leftie friends here. It's only been known by all states and territories as "Australia Day" since 1935, and only a public holiday by all of them since 1994.

 

Change is not always bad. OK is right - let's celebrate 1st January as Australia Day, which is actually when we became one country. As long as they give us a public holiday somewhere in January I don't particularly care.

 

Getting back to the original post, I think this talk of "elites" is rubbish. What the hell do you call Trump if not "elite", in bank balance anyway? (Certainly not in intellectual prowess, despite thinking of himself as a "stable genius"). And I wouldn't mind seeing Nigel Farage's financial records.

 

Ever since Hitler it's been standard operation for rabble-rousers such as Farage, Trump, Hanson, Le Pen and others to market themselves to the poor and disenfranchised as some sort of saviour (usually blaming some other group, like Jews and now "elites", whoever the hell they are, for their woes) - and making outlandish promises to solve everything.

 

We laugh at hicks who used to buy snake oil, but in reality they're still doing it.

 

 

[willedoo]

Similarly, why do we celebrate 25 April, the start of a disastrous defeat? ?

The answer to that is fairly straightforward. Most countries that suffered significant losses in war have an annual day to pay respect to those people who paid the ultimate sacrifice so people like us can enjoy the freedom we have today. Those that gave their lives were mainly young men just like we once were. The difference is that we got to live the rest of our lives and have families, and to grow old peacefully, unlike them.

 

The campaign at Gallipoli was the first major loss of Australian life in war, so it has taken on the yearly tradition of a commemoration of those fallen. It is a very fitting day for such remembrance of those brave people who gave their lives. I'm sorry, Old Koreelah, but you couldn't be more wrong. Anzac Day never was, and never will be a celebration. There's a big difference between a celebration and a commemoration. Although a lot of ex service people and families of those that that gave their lives in service would be offended by your opinions on Anzac Day, I respect your right to express them. The lost souls that are remembered on Anzac Day gave their lives so that you and me and others have that freedom to express our differing views.

 

When you have to attend a full military honours funeral of one of your family members, it puts it all into perspective. When that first volley of the gun salute goes off, I'd defy anyone to think that military respect and remembrance is some sort of celebration.

 

Anzac Day is not about celebrating losses or victories in war, it's a day to remember those lives lost, and to respect their ultimate sacrifice.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Ever since Hitler it's been standard operation for rabble-rousers such as Farage, Trump, Hanson, Le Pen and others to market themselves to the poor and disenfranchised as some sort of saviour (usually blaming some other group, like Jews and now "elites", whoever the hell they are, for their woes) - and making outlandish promises to solve everything...

Of all Trump's promises, the only one he's actually delivered on is to rejig the tax system... to suit the big end of town.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The answer to that is fairly straightforward. Most countries that suffered significant losses in war have an annual day to pay respect to those people who paid the ultimate sacrifice so people like us can enjoy the freedom we have today. Those that gave their lives were mainly young men just like we once were. The difference is that we got to live the rest of our lives and have families, and to grow old peacefully, unlike them.

The campaign at Gallipoli was the first major loss of Australian life in war, so it has taken on the yearly tradition of a commemoration of those fallen. It is a very fitting day for such remembrance of those brave people who gave their lives. I'm sorry, Old Koreelah, but you couldn't be more wrong. Anzac Day never was, and never will be a celebration. There's a big difference between a celebration and a commemoration. Although a lot of ex service people and families of those that that gave their lives in service would be offended by your opinions on Anzac Day, I respect your right to express them. The lost souls that are remembered on Anzac Day gave their lives so that you and me and others have that freedom to express our differing views.

 

When you have to attend a full military honours funeral of one of your family members, it puts it all into perspective. When that first volley of the gun salute goes off, I'd defy anyone to think that military respect and remembrance is some sort of celebration.

 

Anzac Day is not about celebrating losses or victories in war, it's a day to remember those lives lost, and to respect their ultimate sacrifice.

A good answer Willedoo, but perhaps too textbook correct.

 

I sure meant no disrespect to our diggers (out of respect for whom I've planted my steep hillside with direct descendants of the Lone Pine). You're right that we should commemorate rather than celebrate the event, but I grew up with a bit too much drunken revelry on ANZAC Day- especially by the generation that fought WWII.

 

If we are to share a National Day, I'd rather it celebrates the best things about us.

 

 

[willedoo]

A good answer Willedoo, but perhaps too textbook correct.I sure meant no disrespect to our diggers (out of respect for whom I've planted my steep hillside with direct descendants of the Lone Pine). You're right that we should commemorate rather than celebrate the event, but I grew up with a bit too much drunken revelry on ANZAC Day- especially by the generation that fought WWII.

 

If we are to share a National Day, I'd rather it celebrates the best things about us.

There's no rules that state that we have to have one national day only. Anzac Day is a totally separate thing on it's own to remember the fallen. Whether people decide to get drunk on the day is their choice. What individuals do doesn't demean the spirit of the day.

 

We could have national days like Australia Day, Invasion Day, Bad Hair Day, or Let's All Feel Guilty Day; it has nothing to do with Anzac Day and the original spirit of it.

 

 

[old man emu]

I grew up with a bit too much drunken revelry on ANZAC Day- especially by the generation that fought WWII.

If you are a Baby Boomer, you grew up with with the ugly side of ANZAC Day that Old Koreelah alludes to. In fact, such was the revulsion felt that in 1958 Allan Seymour penned the play, The One Day of the Year which deals with the very conflict between reverent commemoration of those who died in military service, and the drunkenness of battalion reunions. The One Day of the Year - Reading Australia

 

Seymour's play reflects the reality of the 1950s and 60s when the youth of the 1940s were still somewhat in their prime, and their children who, as they grew up, had endured the absence of their fathers and the fears of their mothers.

 

However, from the 1970s onwards the drunkenness amongst the actual Returned Servicemen reduced as age and maturity caught up to them. Now, in the centenary of that conflict whose first major engagements began on 25th April, and the passing of the majority of the youth of the 1940s, we are able to direct our attention to the purpose of the day - commemoration of the sacrifices made in the honest belief of the average man that he had to fight against what he believed to be wrong.

 

 

[willedoo]

Well, I hold a completely different opinion. I've never seen it as ugly. After the reverence of the ceremony is over, the diggers have earned the right to get pissed with their mates, especially after the experience they all shared in war and the fact that it's the only time of the year that they get to see each other.

 

But I can also understand that wowsers would see that as ugly. They see most things that way.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I think that ANZAC day is a separate issue. Yes it's good to have a day to remember the sacrifices of the people of our armed forces. When that day falls is a lesser issue, to me at least.

 

The thing about Australia day is that there's a subset of the population, the indigenous people of this country, many of who consider that celebrating Australia day on 26th January is celebrating the invasion of their country by a mob whose diseases, laws, weapons and vices marked a severe change for the worse to a culture that had remained stable for tens of thousands of years.

 

When you look at it from their point of view, unless you have strong feelings that it should remain on 26th January as it has Australia-wide for the last whole 23 years, I can't see why we couldn't change it.

 

 

[old man emu]

If not 26th January, when the formation of the settlement was proclaimed at Port Jackson, then what about 24th January, when the Fleet arrived in Botany Bay? Or even still, 19th April, when Captain Cook and crew first cast eyes on the east coast of Australia. Better still, why not 22nd August when Cook formally, in compliance with European rules of exploration and discovery, formally took possession of the east coast in the name of the English Crown.

 

The strongest meaning of "Invasion" implies a military-backed entry into territory, subjection of the inhabitants and subsequent control of the inhabitants. It can also mean an unpleasant or unwanted thing affecting the status quo. The First Fleet was definitely not a military invasion fleet, despite the presence of a small armed group amongst its numbers. The European arrival did bring unpleasant things such as disease (which wasn't a weapon, just a fact of European life at the time). However, it did bring some immediate benefits (metal tools in the first instance), and living conditions that improved apace with those of the Europeans during the 19th Century.

 

As European attitudes to non-Europeans have changed for the (one hopes) the better during the late 20th Century, efforts have been made by the Europeans to assist Aboriginal peoples to maintain or revive their cultural heritage, and for Europeans to benefit from it. Europeans are even adopting Aboriginal culture into its own:

 

Southern Cross star now known by traditional Aboriginal name

 

So, whatever the date chosen, Australians, all, need a day to celebrate that, no matter what is our cultural heritage,

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Yeah that day has been the one for 23 years Not very long.

 

. Australians LOVE holidays and beer. Even have one for Betty Windsor. Vilifying people who see this choice as inappropriate is OFF.. What ever you call it (Invasion is a bit over the top) they claimed the land in the name of another country on the conveniently FALSE assertion there were no People Living there. They would have been clearly visible from the Ships. Once they noticed them they were considered Fauna, until recently. My ancestors are all Northern England, so I have to avoid a lot of sun and I have no aboriginality or Convict either so I'm a bit away from both camps one might claim connection through, but Blind Freddy can easily SEE this deal stinks for the original people, and it's not hard to put yourself in their "shoes".( Metaphorically.) People don't like being moved out of parts of Sydney NOW to make way for High rise. They should easily realise the similarity, but the situation for the then Sydneysiders was much worse. Their whole way of life was not possible, and their land and how they related to it was gone, leaving them WHAT? Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't care if the diggers get P!$$ed out of their minds on Anzac day. They deserve that . They are all affected by stupid war, and never really get over it nearly ALL of them are Pacifists.The nurses and civilians who were maltreated are all entitled to a day on the Turps if that is what they want. People in essential services, Like the BHP Steelworks at Newcastle would have copped the first bombs, and they knew that. The Vietnam people got red paint chucked on them, booed and heckled and the fabulous RSL wouldn't have them (The Barsturds).. Have as many drinks with your mates as you wish, while you can. We who came later OWE you . YOU people didn't start the wars.. Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Wow - from elitism to Australia day - where by definition - a convict colony is anything but elite - and no castigation for thread drift - love it.

 

On the OP, I sort of agree with the elitism statement - but maybe it should more read the privileged as DT is not really elite.. Most of these votes are protest votes at the establishment (whatever, that really is).. the body of largely anonymous people who present through a puppet, their vested agendas. One thing you have to give credit to DT for is that he is no puppet! Muppet, maybe.. but defo not a puppet. And, if course, I agree with Marty_d'sassertion that most people who capitalise on the populist feelings are the very ones who live what the population have come to despise.

 

Was going to write a bit about the Anzacs, but a show about the Ghan has come on... Back later

 

 

[spacesailor]

Why not this battle,

 

"Why not the date of the Battle of Isurava," It's seems better from a Non military persons point of view , lots of young men take a Sabbatical to do The Track.

 

I googled this & the first line said "No information", should have used Kokoda-track (spellcheck wants: Kodak-track)

 

spacesailor

 

 

[willedoo]

Why not this battle,"Why not the date of the Battle of Isurava," It's seems better from a Non military persons point of view , lots of young men take a Sabbatical to do The Track.

 

I googled this & the first line said "No information", should have used Kokoda-track (spellcheck wants: Kodak-track)

 

spacesailor

spacesailor, I can understand your thoughts on the Anzac Day issue. The point I have been trying to make in this thread is that Anzac Day does not commemorate any particular date in time or any particular battle. We don't have Anzac Day to commemorate wins, defeats or the ins and outs of any battle. Anzac Day has as much to do with our losses in Afghanistan as it does in Gallipoli, Isurava, Buna, Shaggy Ridge, Moquet's Farm or Changi Prison.

 

The fact is, the start of the Gallipoli campaign has traditionally become the date of our National day of remembrance. If you look back through our military history, there are hundreds of dates we could pick. Wins, defeats and draws. But April 25th. it is by tradition.

 

 

[Marty_d]

... but a show about the Ghan has come on... Back later

That wasn't the SBS one where the whole show is a camera view from the front of the Ghan... for 16.5 hours??

 

Hope you kept your fluids up!

 

 

[old man emu]

I believe that the tradition of holding remembrance services on the 25th April was actually begun by the nurses and staff of a military hospital, possibly on Lemnos, or maybe in Cairo, on 25th April 1916.

 

I suppose that like the 26th January, the 25th April is the date of a significant beginning, so is an appropriate one to use. It is significant to Australia alone, not the whole world as is 11th November.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

OK - back (now I have to book a holiday that includes the Ghan)...

 

@Marty_d, unfortunately not (well I say that, thinking it could be an arduous marathon to sit through). It was an episode of a series of trains downunder (or something like it). Think of Dangerous Pilots for Aussie trains. My son berates me for watching it as he says its pretty hard to sensationalise anything about trains.. I am no train spotter, but I enjoy the characters and the scenery... So maybe a 16 hour show about the Ghan is a little much - but while not a train spotter, I followed the construction of the railway line (from a project management perspective).

 

Re Aus day - when I first heard councils weren't going to hold citizenship ceremonies on Australia day, I thought, hang on.. that's a bit over the top. I mean, I can see an issue with reconciliation, but still.. Then I thought about it a bit more.. Since moving to the UK, I cannot even recall when Australia Day is (come to think about it, before departing the sunburned country, I only knew about it because it was a public holiday... Aussie colleagues at work had labelled me a traitor, heathen and a few other choice Aussie phrases that the auto-donk on this forum would probably send a overcharge and fry my computer's innards if I dared wrote them here. IA couple of years ago, I was invited to an Aussie mate's house for a BBQ, and there was a drongo or bogan, not sure, resplendent with his Aussie flag, temp tattoos of the Aussie flag under his eyes, etc. It took me a couple of minutes (I am slower than I used to be) to work out it was Australia day. So, I guess, for me, I am always thankful I am an Aussie..

 

Re Anzac days, @willedoo couldn't have put it better...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I believe that the tradition of holding remembrance services on the 25th April was actually begun by the nurses and staff of a military hospital, possibly on Lemnos, or maybe in Cairo, on 25th April 1916.

I suppose that like the 26th January, the 25th April is the date of a significant beginning, so is an appropriate one to use. It is significant to Australia alone, not the whole world as is 11th November.

Agree OME, but that date is also important to NZ and Turkey.

 

 

[old man emu]

Apologies to the Kiwis. It was a campaign worthy of their remembrance, too.

 

Don't know about its importance to the Ottomans. Just another campaign in a history of campaigns, and one that they won. Besides, the Australians were very instrumental in defeating the Ottoman regime and in 1923 the nation of Turkey was created. However, the Ottoman Army defending the Dardanelles was not entirely composed of ethnic Turks. There were soldiers from all over the Ottoman Empire, and these were not ethnic Turks.

 

So, there are no Ottomans to remember the 25th April, although Ataturk Mustafa KEMAL has this attributed to him:

 

Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives ... You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.

 

Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours ...

 

You, the mothers who sent their sons from faraway countries, wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace.

 

After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.

 

This inscription appears on the Kemal Atatürk Memorial, Anzac Parade, Canberra.

 

 

[willedoo]

There seems to be a lot of press coverage lately re: polls etc. on Australia Day. It's not something I ever think about; just another day for me. But I wonder whether we'll eventually have a non politicized, all inclusive National day on another date.

 

When we had a larger percentage of people of British descent, celebrating the First Fleet arrival was probably more in the public mind than it is today. Fast forward ahead a generation or two when people of Anglo-Saxon heritage are a minority in Australia, it is easy to envisage a different National day than now. Maybe they'll still have a First Fleet day on the 26th., as well as a National day.