Five little boys

[old man emu]

On 31st January in New South Wales, five little boys will come together in the same classroom to take their first steps along the 13 year road to the HSC.

 

Who are they?

 

No 1 is Australian born, of British/Western European heritage.

 

No 2 is Australian born, of Aboriginal heritage.

 

No 3 is Australian born, of South-east Asian heritage.

 

No 4 is Australian born, of Middle Eastern (ie Muslim) heritage.

 

No 5 is African born, and from a refugee family.

 

Assuming that the school staff is well trained, and remains motivated to teaching, and the school is adequately equipped with aids to learning, will the boys be equally well educated at the end of primary school in Year Six?

 

 

[spacesailor]

NO HOPE..

 

Number, five will get preferential treatment.

 

then

 

2

 

4

 

3

 

"one" will get whats left!, after the females take what is best for their Species

 

I kid you not

 

spacesailor

 

 

[old man emu]

Well, that is not the sort of answer I was expecting. Rather xenophobic and sexist.

 

I suppose I should have made the point that each boy's education will be as much affected by his parents' background as by the school environment.

 

 

[nomadpete]

There is a middle ground between unfair xenophobia/sexism, and an acknowledgement of cultural differences. If we allow extreme PC, it sanitises all communications to the point of ignoring the important (relevant) basic difference between demographically identifiable groups of humans.

 

 

[Marty_d]

That's true, but then in a melting-pot like Australia you could start making incorrect assumptions based on someone's obvious ethnic background. For instance someone who is obviously of Chinese origin could be called Robbo, he speaks ocker Aussie and loves the cricket and his family has been here since 1890.

 

My father was Sri Lankan and spoke with an obvious accent. I have no accent (unless you count Tasmanian as a separate dialect) and don't care for Sri Lanka any more than any other country, certainly don't have any Sri Lankan cultural traits or practices.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

If you work in the school environment Then you could comment, it is blatently racsist in some multi cultural schools against the WHITES, indigenous kids get special treatment, muslims get treated better because pc is mad don't want to upset them we might get called racsist,asians ,well they just work harder, black African(somali,sudanese) are rude and quite offensively smelly(they don't use soap apparently) some white kids are very boganish and this I suspect is their home upbringing, again it is the MINORITY getting more than the majority ask me why I see this, I volunteer at a high school making breakfast for the kids and my wife also works face to face with them full time.

 

1. muslims = rude,demanding, self importance shines through,

 

2,Refugees= smelly,rude,demanding,no manners

 

3.Aboriginal aussie= loud,rude feels entitled

 

4.aussie= loud,jokie,boganish

 

5.Asians= mostly quiet and good manners,very smart and courteous

 

My wife deals with the parents , and the muslims are the worst, several times called the police to eject parents who are bullies and threatens violence all because they feel entitled , Aboriginals who are loud and don't want to listen, black African students parents who try to scam, Asian parents always pay but only cash and aussies on welfare who cry poor, we as a society are too pc conscious, its the minorities who are getting the best deal.

 

Personally I don,t care what colour or race you are if you come here to aus fit in ,its a great country, ask the 3rd,4th generation greeks,italians,chinese,and all the other migrants who have fitted in to our lifestyle ,not those who feel entitled and are still using the victim card ,and religion should never be before country we must remain secular.

 

cheers gareth

 

 

[nomadpete]

I am against (that's a discrimination right there) the squeaky wheel getting greased.

 

Marty, due to the squeaky wheels, we have allowed PC to create an unfair playing field for the majority.

 

Somehow we are trying to prevent incorrect ethnic assumptions by legislating against cultural assumptions. It won't work. The integrated majority resent it and the troublesome minorities (of whatever background) think it doesn't apply to them.

 

We cannot fully embrace multiculturality without also embracing those cultural inputs that Gareth gave examples of. Some of these are not acceptable. They are examples of cultural assumptions made by people who are not prepared to respect the cultural and social mores of our country. There are aspects of some 'new Australians' cultural beliefs that we find unacceptable, or at the very least unsociable. These influences, left unchecked, are resulting in a greater level of social unbalance because it encourages the exploiting behaviours that Gareth mentioned. And those people (behaving badly whilst using our antidiscrimination rules to excuse that offensive behaviour), are having a negative affect on our collective culture.

 

 

[old man emu]

Gareth works at the type of school I was thinking about when I made my original list: multi-ethnic, low socio-economic status, low level of parental literacy in any language.

 

No 1 is Australian born, of British/Western European heritage. Aussies parents on welfare who cry poor.

 

No 2 is Australian born, of Aboriginal heritage. Parents loud and don't want to listen rude feels entitled.

 

No 3 is Australian born, of South-east Asian heritage. Asian parents always pay but only cash.

 

No 4 is Australian born, of Middle Eastern (ie Muslim) heritage. Parents who are bullies and threatens violence all because they feel entitled. Rude,demanding, self importance shines through.

 

No 5 is African born, and from a refugee family. Parents who try to scam. Smelly,rude,demanding, no manners.

 

It is very clear that it is the parents who are adversely affecting the educational outcomes of their children. Of the five, I hazard a guess that the South-east Asian boy will come out with the the most ability to score well in NAPLAN testing. Whether he has any ability to apply what is taught to score well in NAPLAN to Reality is another matter. The biggest hurdle they all will have to overcome is trying to get an understanding of the basics of the 3 R's, rather than being trained to score well in NAPLAN tests which are business management tools, not indicators of accumulated knowledge.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

NO it is not low socio -economic it is in the top 5 schools in Brisbane including the private schools, it is very ethnically diverse and have outstanding students who excel, last year it was Asian,Australian, who were the top students, I find when at Breakfast club the Asian/Chinese students girls and boys are very polite and even smile at some of my grandad jokes, most are 2nd generation and don't have to many problems with fitting in, on the other hand most of the refugee/muslim kids are not aussie born and bring with them the same practices and habits from their own cultures and they DO NOT want to fit in or abide by our rules/politeness/culture we as a country should be teaching these kids how good it is here and to accept/adopt our ways , and still hold on to their own mix of food,culture,religeon , I find that the Aboriginal kids have a huge chip on the shoulder and this is handed down to them by their own parents and feel good leftards, I hesitate to say this but most of the so called indigenous kids are whiter than me but they still want to be victims, its over what happened up to the sixties is history. and the Naplan is a crock

 

 

[spacesailor]

THE SURPRISING THING IS! in this day & age,

 

Aussie kids can and do leave high-school ILLITERATE, I'll SAY IT AGAIN.

 

ILLITERATE.

 

At 17 years of age & cannot fill-in their dole form.

 

I personally know three that did the FULL years of high schooling at the same school.

 

Another school not far away has had to change its name or get closed. (that bad)

 

spacesailor

 

 

[spacesailor]

My grandson came in first on the school's cross-country race, & was called a cheat by the person in charge, as the schools favorite came in third.

 

The favored student was a number 4.

 

At the athletics meet he was awarded a "10" on the rings, same teacher objected that score & he did a second "10". Grumpy teacher took off & grandson did a third

 

"10" score as a demonstration!. He also came second in the state final & had a civic presentation. Same teacher still doesn't like him.

 

Now is a painter for a living. NO dammmm encouragement for a Number one, "in the 5 little boys"

 

spacesailor

 

 

[old man emu]

And they say that it's the kids who do the bullying.

 

There's many a story of teachers taking a dislike to a kid and using their position of authority to make life a misery.

 

 

[willedoo]

Probably not relevant to this discussion, but when I was in high school in the 60's, we had a type of economic discrimination. Only because I went to a private grammar school. No girls, all white, mainly anglo, plus the usual 3rd. or 4th. gen German descent kids and the odd one of Greek descent.

 

In those days, you sat in class in order of your results in the last term exam. Smart ones up the back, dumb ones down the front. I think the original idea was so that those students struggling academically would be up front, closer to the teacher and get a bit of extra help.

 

All the doctors and lawyers kids were a bit more conscientious in studying, so they sat up the back. Also, most of their parents were trustees of the school, meaning a lot of funding was provided by them. We hardly ever saw a teacher down the front of the class. They hovered around the rich kids like blowflies around a turd, providing virtual private tutoring.

 

Those of us closer to the front of the class and whose parents were busted arse farmers got sweet FA of an education.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

As I recall my schooling years:

 

1. State primary school was in a lower-middle class area of melb; probably a new estate or not far from it at the time (I can recall vividly to grade 2 - beyond that, it's a blur. Mrs. White was the grade 2 teachers name and we had stupid coloured/sized blocks for learning maths and counting). Predominantly white kids with UK sounding names.
    
    
   
2. Parents business started working so we moved to a more affluent eastern suburb - attended the local state primary school. Definitely a steup up Grade 3 teacher was into electronics and was teaching us the basics. Predominantly white UK and European backgrounds.
    
    
   
3. Parents split up. Mother moves to a dodgy part of Melbourne (not too far from Eddie McGuire's childhood suburb). State primary school. I didn't even know what a fight was until I attended there (was involuntarily embroiled in a couple of them). Mostly white, but a decent portion of Greek, Italian and Maltese children. The odd Oriental Asian.
    
    
   
4. Moved to the local state high school.. desolate, unkempt and rundown. Teachers were more childminders (in year 7/form 1, we could pick any subject we wanted; only English was mandatory). Life at home was tough with the stepfather and I was not in a good place; it was manifesting itself in my behaviour at school - looking back, it is very embarresing. Much the same makeup as the previous state school. Turks had not moved to that area yet. I think there were a couple of Lebanese as well. Oh, and one Spanish girl - we were going out for a bit. Cute as anything. Of course, due to my behaviour, it was not meant to be.
    
    
   
5. Year 8 /Form 2 - life ubearable with stepfather; father (who is now working again as divorce basically results in selling the business, house, etc and spliting the assets) convinces an APS grammar school to take me in. I am still not in a great place. Mainly white, UK/European, a small South American contingent and a few Jews as well (just to differentiate relgion, given it is an Anglican school).
    
    
   
6. Year 9 / Form 3 - I am settling down and returning to getting good grades. However, the cost is just that bit too much, so my father uses his borther's address as my place of residence to get me into one of the more reputable state high schools of the era. Predominantly white UK/European, a few Indians. Lots of Cypriots (European, but just to provide some idea of diversity).
    
   

 

 

First thing to note is that they are all predominantly white, mainly UK, but also a healthy Western and central European representation. This was probably a product of the times. However, I didn't really ever notice any favouritism amongst the teachers to groups of students. Each teacher had their favourites and those that they loathed. However, they tended to be on an individual rather than colelctive basis. Some interetsting points to note:

 

School 3: It was a rough place to be as a student, though, the teaching staff were by and large reasonably competent and did a good job given their environment. There are two in particular that stand out. When students were in difficulty, they were quick to step in and provide support, be that the result of poor academic performance, domestic issues (including violence) or bullying. It's easy for a school to perform well when it is attended by students of a socio-economic background that encourages it. Much harder when there is a lack of family support. In fact, fo the teachers I recall at school 3, many were better than school 2 probably would have set the foundtions for may a Rhodes scholar. I don't recall any systemic preferential treatment though. There was an Armenian boy who started his academic life in Australia with us; they provided some additional support to cater for his lack of English, but as his English improved, his support subsided.

 

School 4, despite my poor behaviour, the teaching staff were incredibly supportive; one in particular. They could see the deterioration in participation and increase in disruption wasn't normal and they really went out of their way to accomodate and address it They administered an IQ test, of which I did pretty well (not brilliant, but not at the bottom of the pool, either) and then forced my parents to sit around a table and work things through. Academincally, a couple were really good, the others mainly were trying to keep the bulk of the kids off drugs or fighting each other. There was one teacher who hated me - the Graphic Design teacher. As we coulld pick any subject we liked, I picked all the maths and science oriented ones as I ddon't have an artistic bone in my body - I put that last in my list of subjects (you had to rank all of them). They put me in it. I was a total flop at it and coupled with my behaviour, she didn't have the time for me and openly berated/belittled me. Don't blame her, though. Again - I don't recall any systemic preferential treatment

 

School 5: Really wished I could have stayed there. I had issues, but they were subsiding and it opened my eyes to a whole new type of life; not wealth (as we didn't have any), but different activites, like canoeing, abseiling, orienteering (which I excelled at), water polo, cadets, etc.Very supportive in and out of campus. There didn't appear to be any favouritism amongst the wealthier students - in fact it was probably a bit the other way as they rely on getting high percentages of their students top grades (sometimes by losing some of the poor performers) and those that may have stuggled a bit were often helped.

 

School 6: Excellent school - again the dmographics were weighted in favour of the school in terms of performance. Teaching staff were a mixed bag though. Some excellent teachers, but a few real howlers. My year 5 maths and science teachers were bascally incompetent and another teacher was more itnerested in flirting with 1 year old girls (not suggesting anything more - and doubt he did) than he was with teaching his class. Yet they still did well. Not a lot of positive or negative discrimination going on there, either.

 

I may have been lukcy and of the 6 schools I went to, both in affluent and deprived areas fo Melbourne, there wasn't this discrimination people talk about - there were certainly teachers who provided preferential treatment to some and loathed/neglected others, but this was on an individual basis (I am not saying that their lack of professional performance in these cases is in anyway justificable or defendable).

 

I send both my kids to a private school - it is clear that there is preferential treatment of the head to certain parents of certain economic credentials at parents functions. But there are no complaints or suggestions from the kids this flows down to the classroom - and while perdominantly white UK, there are a mix of non-UK whites (Russians, French, Germans), Indian and Oriental Asian (HK, China mainly).

 

 

[willedoo]

Jerry, that's a big difference to my experience growing up in country Queensland. Brisbane had different ethnic groups but mainly European descent until the Vietnamese refugees arrived in the 70's. In the mix I'd exclude Aboriginal people and the Chinese who had been here for generations, because they've been here forever.

 

North Queensland had lots of Italian migrants, but apart from that, outside of Brisbane, the only non U.K.descent migrants were the people running the mandatory Greek cafe in a lot of country towns. Of course, there are always a lot of people of German descent in S.E. Qld. and the Darling Downs area, but they've been here since the 1800's.

 

We didn't have the multi-cultural diversity of Melbourne, but we're catching up. Toowoomba has had a sizeable Sudanese population for many years, and for a long time, they were the only noticeable migrant group in that town. Then all of a sudden, within a couple of years, there were many Africans from other countries, and many, many Middle Eastern people arrived. Ten years ago, you wouldn't have seen a Moslem there, but now it's common to see women in the full burka and veil over the eyes pushing a trolley around Woolies or Coles. Everyone seems to get on ok, though. Possibly because the university in Toowoomba has had a lot of foreign students for decades, due to the courses they run, and the locals are used to seeing people from all over the world because of that.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@willedoo, from what you say, on a proportional basis Toowoomba seems as mutlicultural, if not more, than Melbourne. I think the state, and to a lesser extent, the private education system is, unfortunately, a product of the wider political environment of the day. Melbourne, for as long as I can remember, revered its meltling pot reputation. However, to add balance to that, Melbourne has (or at least, had) very segregated areas; Kensington (and presumably Richmond, because of all of the restaurants) had the bulk of the Vietnamese immigration; Coburg was very Italian and when the secind/third generations prospered, they made way for the Turks; Caulfield/Balaclava is (or at least was) little Israel (I lived in Glenhuntly and often saw a car with a personalised number plare: "MOSSAD" when driving to work. When I last worked in Melbourne, Dandenong seemed to be the Indian enclave (where I asked an Indian co-worker where to get a good Indian takeaway - hence my satirical post on recaviation - his response - only at home). I am sure there are other areas where mainly a "minority" population congregated. This is not multi-culturalism; this sis co-locating multi-culturals. Having said that, London is no different. There are areas where Jafas (Jus anaother F'n Aussie) congregate, Polish, Ukranian, Arabic, Jewish, etc.

 

The great thing about Melbourne, and indeed Australia (and indeed the UK), is by an large we all accept and often embrace new cultures that come to our shores. Sure, there are some issues (Sudanese in Mebourne, for example, are attracting quite a bit of attention), but, wathichng a talk show with an Arabc presenter on ABC (can't remember his name), he featured a Jewish musician. At the end of the show he said something like, "Imagine that; An Arab and a Jew on the same TV show and no animosity. Only in Australia!"

 

 

[old man emu]

Well, my grandson starts Big School next Monday. Tomorrow will be his last day at the Early Childhood Learning Centre he has attended for the past three years. I feel sorry for the little bloke.

 

He will be going from an educational regime where he was able to explore the world freely, and where formal lessons (learning guided by a teacher) were fun and involved all the children equally. Where a main measure of his development was reported as, "He was a good boy today", or "He was very helpful today". No marks out of ten. No positioning in a quartile. No competition with his peers.

 

Next week there'll be no encouraging words from the teacher - just threats of punishment for non-standard activity. His education will be strictly directed. He will be given an assessment number based on how he handles testing on one day. Worst of all, he'll be coached in ways to score well in the NAPLAN tests so that the status of eh school will be either be maintained or enhanced. And he will be thrown into a culture of competition where the ability to regurgitate information will open or close doors to learning opportunities.

 

At the end of his time at the ECLC he showed that he possesses a love of learning and an ability to apply that learning. I wonder how long before that love and ability begin to wane.

 

 

[Yenn]

What we need to know is what is wrong with the education system, then maybe we could fix it.

 

So far we keep hearing reports and requests for more money.

 

My children went to the normal government schools, hampered by our many moves around the country. They got a really good education. Better than mine, but that could be due to my hating school.

 

My Grandkids got varied educations, one excellent and the other two, not really good. Now I see the two poor achievers pushing their kids to do well and even teaching themselves so they can help the kids. I am amazed at how much of what they couldn’t do at school, they are teaching their kids.

 

The very few kids I come across, seem fairly well educated, but not many want to spend time with a grumpy old man, so I can’t really be a judge.

 

 

[gareth lacey]

at the school I volunteer at funny that its the Asian kids that are easy talking to us older folk,they even laugh at some of my jokes,its all about talking to them not telling them,one of the other guys that volunteers is grumpy and gives the kids a hard time ,suffice to say that they will usually seek me out to help , I can be grumpy ,but its usually to people who are rude,intollerant, and swear in the wrong places, one of my gripes is that when I take my 3 yr old granddaughter to kindy gym the other mums are on their mobiles and not interacting with the little ones

 

 

[spacesailor]

GARETH.

 

Sounds like my teacher's, That had to learn What to teach, the day-before, they taught us.

 

",but its usually to people who are rude,intollerant, and swear in the wrong places,"

 

Has taken many year's, through four daughters to grandchildren, to not get the shakes when entering School grounds.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

In my four decades of teaching I learned that the best place for a teacher is not in front of the kids, but beside them.

 

 

[old man emu]

What we need to know is what is wrong with the education system, then maybe we could fix it.So far we keep hearing reports and requests for more money..

The experts do know what is wrong. It is the "All kids are the same. They all learn at the same rate. Those who can't keep up are either lazy or stupid."

 

We need a system that accepts variation in rate of learning between children of the same age. Education in the Primary School years should be about exploring the world and the things in it. The only things that I consider to be Key Areas of Learning are reading and written composition - the tools of communication. I'd also like to see basic Maths taught as a component of reading. Afterall, mathematical symbols are merely another form of the written word.

 

The next thing we should abolish are grading systems. I would rather see my grandson's Report Card saying that he takes a lot of interest in exploring his world and being able to recall his experiences and communicate them to others. I don't see that it adds value to his education to know that he scored more in an exam then his mate, but less that that annoying little girl with the pigtails.

 

I'd like to see NAPLAN and the HSC abolished. The belief that these examinations are the be all and end all of a student's life is a false doctrine. Being pressured to do well above average in these exams puts students under immense psychological pressure which can, and does, lead to self harm and suicide. Let's allow our kids to deal with puberty and adolescent maturing without making them believe that the next 50 to 60 years of their lives will be determined by a fortnight one late October.

 

We have to abandon the belief that a university education commencing at age 18 is the only worthwhile Life goal. For most kids, some vocational education at a TAFE college is the way to go. There are also some who will profit from attending the University of Hard Knocks.

 

 

[willedoo]

Well, my grandson starts Big School next Monday. Tomorrow will be his last day at the Early Childhood Learning Centre he has attended for the past three years. I feel sorry for the little bloke.

He will be going from an educational regime where he was able to explore the world freely, and where formal lessons (learning guided by a teacher) were fun and involved all the children equally. Where a main measure of his development was reported as, "He was a good boy today", or "He was very helpful today". No marks out of ten. No positioning in a quartile. No competition with his peers.

 

Next week there'll be no encouraging words from the teacher - just threats of punishment for non-standard activity. His education will be strictly directed. He will be given an assessment number based on how he handles testing on one day. Worst of all, he'll be coached in ways to score well in the NAPLAN tests so that the status of eh school will be either be maintained or enhanced. And he will be thrown into a culture of competition where the ability to regurgitate information will open or close doors to learning opportunities.

 

At the end of his time at the ECLC he showed that he possesses a love of learning and an ability to apply that learning. I wonder how long before that love and ability begin to wane.

It often amazes me how we in the West continually criticize historical regimes like the Soviet union, when each year we become more and more like them. What you are describing sounds very similar. Both alternative governments firmly believe that the public need more government intervention in their lives. And there's never a point when they think enough is enough. I don't think it will be too many more generations before Orwell's fiction becomes reality. Freedom and democracy, my arse.

 

I don't think they need rigid education any more. If predictions are to be believed, there will be 40% unemployment in this country within twenty years. There won't be any jobs for these kids, so why not just teach them how to have fun, value life and respect others. The way the future will pan out, they'd be better off teaching them practical survival skills instead of the BS they're shoving down their throats now.

 

 

[spacesailor]

How many ex students of mature years still use "Logarithms" ,

 

Did I get some stick for not grasping that shiiet!

 

"Education in the Primary School years should be about exploring the world and the things in it."

 

I didn't get any of that, maybe makes me antisocial, started school age about 8 or 9 left at 141/2.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

The experts do know what is wrong. It is the "All kids are the same. They all learn at the same rate. Those who can't keep up are either lazy or stupid."We need a system that accepts variation in rate of learning between children of the same age. Education in the Primary School years should be about exploring the world and the things in it. The only things that I consider to be Key Areas of Learning are reading and written composition - the tools of communication. I'd also like to see basic Maths taught as a component of reading. Afterall, mathematical symbols are merely another form of the written word.

 

The next thing we should abolish are grading systems. I would rather see my grandson's Report Card saying that he takes a lot of interest in exploring his world and being able to recall his experiences and communicate them to others. I don't see that it adds value to his education to know that he scored more in an exam then his mate, but less that that annoying little girl with the pigtails.

 

I'd like to see NAPLAN and the HSC abolished. The belief that these examinations are the be all and end all of a student's life is a false doctrine. Being pressured to do well above average in these exams puts students under immense psychological pressure which can, and does, lead to self harm and suicide. Let's allow our kids to deal with puberty and adolescent maturing without making them believe that the next 50 to 60 years of their lives will be determined by a fortnight one late October.

 

We have to abandon the belief that a university education commencing at age 18 is the only worthwhile Life goal. For most kids, some vocational education at a TAFE college is the way to go. There are also some who will profit from attending the University of Hard Knocks.

 

Couldn't agree more. In fact, and this may be controversial. I only have one son and he did not go to school at all. My son is now 28 and is extremely successful happy and well adjusted. Whilst I am not suggesting this is the answer for everyone, it certainly worked for us.