From other site...WIND TURBINES

[coljones]

I understand the Tomago smelter is 16% of the NSW electricity total. It could be 6% (i'm not sure) but in any case it's a much out of proportion user (as they all are). The rate they pay/paid in Victoria was NEVER declared. I think we need steel aluminium and magnesium locally produced Copper is also refined electrolitically. We only have 3 weeks supply of Hydrocarbon fuel before it's exhausted. That's a slight bit of negligence of security priorities in a country where most supermarket stuff travels thousands of kilometers. Nev

But we probably shouldn't produce any more finished metals than we need.

 

Currentrent modelling suggests that we are exporting highly subsidised energy packed in aluminium and importing pollution that would be produced overseas if they did their own aluminium smelting.

 

I have seen suggestions that the subsidies to aluminium is higher than $150,000 per person employed in the smelting industry. It would be cheaper to have these employees on the dole being paid the full time Australian average weekly earnings.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's a fair chance that you are completely correct. The ridiculous secrecy surrounding the Power prices would indicate some kind of cover up. The smelting of metals must ideally be ultra reliable with the power supply. Any prolonged outage and the whole thing is permanently solid.

 

The states would fall over each other to bribe the Al manufacturers to come to their particular state.. Electric steel furnaces were used at Commonwealth steel Company at Waratah, Newcastle to produce Ferro alloys. I've been near these things when they are in action and the electric currents, rumbling and growling are positively (no pun intended) unreal. We do need an alloy steel industry too. The quality was quite high.. It's pretty easy to isolate some country where it relies entirely for base materials from overseas.. You can't PLAN on getting raw metals at dumped prices either .Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I accept the strategic imperative of having certain domestic industry, even if it needs subsidies. After all, we don't expect our military to run at a profit (the profits end up in the mansions being built near Washington D.C. by the elite of the weapons industry and their lobbyists).

 

The issue is what sort of energy we use. The cost of renewables is going down so fast that the coal lobby is in panic mode. Any dirty political trick will be used to protect the right of rich miners to be subsidised by the taxpayer.

 

 

[Marty_d]

"CEO-class welfare".

 

 

[facthunter]

Or else they really are worth about 300 hundred times as much as the ordinary worker. I find that suggestion preposterous. At times I've been at the same place as many of these high flyers and they are nothing special. They can be very "focused" on looking after their own interests though, and I could add .more Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

notice you have gone away from wind and battery what the ACCC started you to look silly neil

 

 

[octave]

notice you have gone away from wind and battery what the ACCC started you to look silly neil

ACCC rejects coal-fired power support claims

 

It is wise to actually to read a full analysis of what the report says rather interpret it as saying what you wish it said.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The comments underneath probably influence voters as much as the actual article. As usual, by the time I got to read them, "comments are closed", so I have no way to challenge the I'll-informed or straight out dishonest.

 

I wonder how many come from actual thinking voters and how many are inserted by Big Coal.

 

 

[storchy neil]

with respect octave the whole report is available on line read the report not the bloody paper don't tell me what some pissant reporter says

 

yes olk I have part read that report bit more to go neil

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Neil I'd love to have a cool, rational discussion with you about climate change.

 

Would you be open to new perspectives on the debate?

 

 

[storchy neil]

olk when I finish that accc written report and a couple of others I am reading cannot rush these things the old brain needs a spell now and again neil

 

 

[octave]

with respect octave the whole report is available on line read the report not the bloody paper don't tell me what some pissant reporter saysyes olk I have part read that report bit more to go neil

Neil nope not the words of a reporter but the words of Rod Simms the Competition Chief.

 

 

[storchy neil]

octave have read that report give me a couple days to think it through neil

 

 

[spacesailor]

What was the climbet. Before the last

 

"Ice age. The one after the metior strike 64 million years ago.

 

spacesailer

 

 

[Marty_d]

What was the climbet. Before the last"Ice age. The one after the metior strike 64 million years ago.

 

spacesailer

Cretaceous - Wikipedia

 

 

[storchy neil]

octave could you point out on what page off that report that simms says coal is out that story is not what simms says it what some mupput of a reporter says

 

oh and by the way that battery builder off SA battery has a generator beside it and for that battery builder to call a diver that got those kids out a pedo is beyond a joke those sort of muppets have never been into caves neil

 

 

[octave]

Neil you said this "notice you have gone away from wind and battery what the ACCC started you to look silly neil This made it seem like you HAD ALREADY READ or at least understood what it did say. Also Neil I have to ask why are all your posts about this so angry?

 

The issue is that you seem to think that Sims rules out renewables, he does not.

 

Sims does not rule out coal nor did I say he did and indeed the article I posted did not either. What he said was that we needed more competition. It neither endorses or rules out coal specifically. Some conservatives have claimed that this report proves that we need more coal power stations, it does not.

 

In terms of cost increases, you constantly assert that it is renewables that are the major cause of the price rises. Here is what the report says.[ATTACH]49446._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

Note where the biggest price rises are, network - poles and wires. In fact, Sims suggests that we have come to expect a level of reliability of supply that we are unwilling to pay for.

 

Sim's also said that the solar feed-in tariff is too generous.

 

If you really want to know what Sims says but don't want to read long reports (don't blame you) here is a link to Sim's address at the national press club, you can hear the words from the horse's mouth.

 

National Press Club: Rod Sims

 

As for the battery being next to a generator well yes it is next to Hornsdale wind farm. We have discussed this before, yes sometimes they charge from the network WHEN THE PRICE IS LOW and sell it back when the price is high. This makes great economic sense. Yep Musk can be a bit of a dick at times but we are talking about a product his factory produces not the man himself.

 

A month in, Tesla's SA battery is surpassing expectations

 

[nomadpete]

Octave, just to touch on one of your points,

 

The cost of poles and wires and the grid.

 

Some 25 years ago I read a very detailed report about cost vs capital expenditures of the US electrical grid. (I tried to wade through the stats but got the executive summary).

 

Bearing in mind the capitalist model is all about the bottom line (ie profit), they conclude that a grid operating at optimum will provide power to consumers most of the time and that outages (blackouts) occur just below the consumer outrage level. If there are no blackouts, it shows that there is too much money being spent on infrastructure and maintenance.

 

Australins have been spoilt. They expect the power to always be available 100% of the time. Critics label this as "gold plating". I think it is actually providing an expected service to the public. Grid infrastructure cost started sharp rises when, apart from usual population growth, the public rushed out to buy air conditioners and lots of electrical toys for the home. No surprise that the power infrastructure had to grow to provide .

 

Everyone complains about the cost but ignore the simple fact that that all of us actually use heaps more electricity than ever before.

 

 

[facthunter]

Response times for Critical coal can be in days. It's not capable of responding quickly It's also only efficient over a small range. Close to Maximum. A battery is a MAGIC component in this situation of rapid adjustment. Hydro similarly turning on and off a moving column of water with it's massive inertia without care will damage the show very expensively. When a coal fired power station fails (drops off line) it's usually a full loss, without warning and rapidly often on a hot day where the efficiency is down anyhow... New coal is NOT cheap and it would be a large amount in a central place requiring high distribution costs and more failure prone the further the distances become.. All this can be decided by FACTS not politicians with vested Interests.

 

PS.. Pete I'm not sure that's correct about using more I've consistently reduced power consumed by getting much more efficiency and I don't think I'm alone.. INDIVIDUAL power consumption has probably fallen on average Going to heat pumps for water heating cut my total power usage by 50%..Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

For hot water I went solar 20 years ago. Back then hot water was about 40% of our power bill. Not so nowadays.

 

But I am sure that you and I are not representative of the majority. Most people I ask are telling me that their bill is excessive. Then when I ask, they can't tell me how much power they actually use. So I get them to check. It's generally at least twice our household consumption. Some are more.

 

For instance, Many homes have one or two large screen TV's going all day and half the night. Likewise many people never turn the computer (s) off, ever. Most have two fridges and a freezer. Lights (although individually not big power), many people don't know that a light switch can be used turn a light off. So most of the house lights are on all day and most of the night. Air conditioning is automatic, so there's no need to turn it off, right? The pool pump is on a timer so it's only using off peak power. But these all add up to a wasteful power consumption habit that means that most consumers are using much more power than 20 or more years ago.

 

In the old days winter saw the highest daily state power usage. From memory, it was about 20 years ago we first logged more daily consumption (in Qld) in summer than winter. Aircon is the reason.

 

A situation worsened when I have observed homes (call me critical but I count the lights when I visit) that have a kilowatt of lighting on, during the day. That means that they are paying for another kilowatt of power for the aircon to counteract their lights before it starts cooling the house.

 

That's all about self control, smart home design, and a little daily forethought.

 

 

[nomadpete]

By the way, generation is not a common place for sudden loss of power.

 

Please don't get the idea I like coal. I don't. As said before, it is a power source that belong to the early industrial revolution. We should be diversifying our power portfolio. And with recent advances our technology is approaching a point where distributed power canbecome old hat.

 

 

[octave]

For hot water I went solar 20 years ago. Back then hot water was about 40% of our power bill. Not so nowadays.

But I am sure that you and I are not representative of the majority. Most people I ask are telling me that their bill is excessive. Then when I ask, they can't tell me how much power they actually use. So I get them to check. It's generally at least twice our household consumption. Some are more.

 

For instance, Many homes have one or two large screen TV's going all day and half the night. Likewise many people never turn the computer (s) off, ever. Most have two fridges and a freezer. Lights (although individually not big power), many people don't know that a light switch can be used turn a light off. So most of the house lights are on all day and most of the night. Air conditioning is automatic, so there's no need to turn it off, right? The pool pump is on a timer so it's only using off peak power. But these all add up to a wasteful power consumption habit that means that most consumers are using much more power than 20 or more years ago.

 

In the old days winter saw the highest daily state power usage. From memory, it was about 20 years ago we first logged more daily consumption (in Qld) in summer than winter. Aircon is the reason.

 

A situation worsened when I have observed homes (call me critical but I count the lights when I visit) that have a kilowatt of lighting on, during the day. That means that they are paying for another kilowatt of power for the aircon to counteract their lights before it starts cooling the house.

 

That's all about self control, smart home design, and a little daily forethought.

That reminds me of my dad when I was a kid. He would walk around the house switching lights off exclaiming (in his Yorkshire accent) "it's like Blackpool illuminations in here"

 

 

[facthunter]

There's sites listing power station sudden failures. Perhaps they aren't common but they certainly change the situation fast. Liddel is one I've seen listed. I wish Thorium was a goer. It sounds like the deal in some ways. for local area autonomy.. As for wasteful behavior , I've even seen rather well off people who leave the airconditioning on when they are on holidays, probably for the gold fish.. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

I don't suggest that power stations are failure free. Just that they aren't common. Also, that as long as the grid (that's the HV grid) is being properly managed, the loss of one power station doesn't cause any loss of supply to consumers. That's the advantage of having a grid.

 

Incidentally, when a fully loaded conventional (steam) power station goes off line it results in a spectacular noisy dump of steam. Closely followed by a substantial loss of income. Imagine 50,000 horsepower of steam vented instantly, and the boilers still producing until the fires can be throttled down to idle.

 

On another subject, about hydro:

 

In normal operation, a hydro is not brought on line by suddenly turning on the tap. For instance, Wivenhoe pump storage has water running through the turbines constantly, just enough to spin the generator at operating speed. If power is needed in a hurry, they can instantly synchronise with the grid 50Hz, close the breaker, and it is on line in a fraction of a second. No shocks. Then they wind open the taps to increase the power output. It's all automated. The fast response makes it almost like switching on a Elon Musk battery, but without the need for an expensive inverter.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you have a LONGISH pipe the valving has to be done carefully especially when shutting off.. It's even a problem in water supply reticulation situations. Volume change equals velocity and inertia effects. Lakes and large cross sectional areas are little effect.. V squared situation. like hammering in a pipe. Water doesn't compress much.. Nev