Quickies part 2

[nomadpete]

The school system is very important. But even at its best, the results rely heavily upon the raw material they are given to work with....

 

"Give me the child for the first seven years and I'll give you the man."

Jesuit maxim

 

[Old Koreelah]

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

It's a sad case of perennial underinvestment…

So true, Jerry. During my four decades teaching in public schools I spend lots of my spare time building, installing and raising money for gear we needed- basic stuff which our private school competitors seemd to have in spades. 

 

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

…the teacher is in over his or her head… overworked and overstressed with no support, simply not experienced enough before being unleashed into the furnace…

This poor girl has a diagnosed behaviour kid in her class, but little support. 

 

My little grandie has befriended the boy concerned  and tries to keep him on the rails, but sometimes he just trashes the room.  

I am immmensely proud of her attitude to this; she’s confided in me, but doesn’t want her parents to know how bad things are- she says they have enought to worry about!

[rgmwa]

Two of our daughters are primary school teachers. In reality they are social workers, psychologists, behaviour therapists, negotiators and report writers almost to the point where teaching is a secondary occupation. 

[red750]

Ahh! Christmas. Just received the Myers catalogue in the letterbox.

 

Lego Millenium Falcon.  Reduced to $1199! You've got to be joking. 

[red750]

[facthunter]

 Gets the KIDS in. Clever marketing but unhelpful.  Nev

[spacesailor]

nomadpete said !.

" Jesuit maxim "  

" give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man " .

As I started my schooling at eight years old & left when 14 to start work .

Does it mean I am Not a man,    just a " Peter Pan " ? .

It,s beyond my IQ level .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

That really alludes to indoctrination effectiveness. Your mind is more receptive/ plastic when you're young (and trusting). "The man" is the persuaded/ moulded end product ready to answer a calling.  You're lucky to have escaped spacey but unfortunately you will not have eternal youth if your hopes are set on  that. (Though you do look very youthful in your Avatar).  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

6 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

So true, Jerry. During my four decades teaching in public schools I spend lots of my spare time building, installing and raising money for gear we needed- basic stuff which our private school competitors seemd to have in spades. 

My brother, who was the deputy headmaster of one of the bigger private schools in Melbourne and now is headmaster of a smaller one, believes the government subsidy of private schools is one of the biggest cons - even though he is a beneficiary. They don't reduce fees; they use the subsidies as bonuses to get bigger and better stuff. Both my kids went to private school here (no subsidies). Resources were better, but teaching at the state schools they ended up with were better in the end. My daughter is currently attending a state 6th form college, which is  a hybrid between university and secondary school - the freedom of university and the monitoring/supervision of state schools. She had the choice of staying at the private school she was at, attend a well respected Melbourne private school, or the 6th form college. She elected the latter and couldn't be happier. It is well resourced by state standards, but no where near her previous state school (across the road from the college), yet the teaching is much better and the subjects offered are far greater. So much for the resources. 

 

My son left the private school because in year 11, the Info Tech course they offered was advanced applications usage. So, how to do fancier word docs and excel spreadsheets.. The didn't offer the programming courses in year 11 or A Levels (equivalent of HSC/VCE) that his London mate who went to an average high school in London did offer. So, he upped sticks and went to a local state high school. I recall when I moved from a posh Melbourne grammar school to a good High School, they students at the high school were learning programming and had a decent sized computer for its time; my private school didn't even have a computer.. but boy, were the sports, arts, science, and recreational facilities second to none. More resources doesn't always equal better education..

6 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

My little grandie has befriended the boy concerned  and tries to keep him on the rails, but sometimes he just trashes the room.  

I am immmensely proud of her attitude to this; she’s confided in me, but doesn’t want her parents to know how bad things are- she says they have enought to worry about!

Your granddaughter is someone to be very proud of - shows maturity, perception, and empathy well beyond her years; Your family ought to be congratulated. Mine, however, are spoilt brats (well, some of the time.. not always) [Edit] Actually, my daughter is also one that shows empathy and care.. she just has to mature a bit..

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

7 hours ago, rgmwa said:

Two of our daughters are primary school teachers. In reality they are social workers, psychologists, behaviour therapists, negotiators and report writers almost to the point where teaching is a secondary occupation. 

You have pretty much described a teacher's lot. My mother was a primary school teacher. Teaching has always been all those things you list. Except that maybe the paperwork side has become somewhat more onerous.

[old man emu]

The suburban non-government schools are essential to the state-run schools simply becasue if teh non-government ones closed, how could the state-run ones cope with the influx of students who, by Law, must attend school?

[Old Koreelah]

11 minutes ago, old man emu said:

The suburban non-government schools are essential to the state-run schools simply becasue if teh non-government ones closed, how could the state-run ones cope with the influx of students who, by Law, must attend school?

That lame old argument in support of state aid has been trotted out for decades. Very divisive debate which nobody will win. If governments reined in some of the appalling rich private school rorts there’d be more for the needy schools- private snd public.

 

A country that prioritizes new sports stadiums ahead of it’s childrens’ education doesn’t have a rosey future.

[rgmwa]

1 minute ago, old man emu said:

The suburban non-government schools are essential to the state-run schools simply becasue if teh non-government ones closed, how could the state-run ones cope with the influx of students who, by Law, must attend school?

Yes but it seems that the number of disruptive kids coming from dysfunctional and fragmented families or have ADHD or have parents who are disinterested in helping their kids with homework, or are abusive to the teachers is steadily increasing. Even our teacher kids say that they never experienced significant levels of classroom disruption when they were that age. And when I was in primary school, the nuns encouraged obedience. attentiveness and completion of homework by liberal use of the strap. Not saying that was great either, but things these days seem pretty bad judging by some of the stories I hear. Not all kids and parents are like that of course, but a lot are.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I think it is easy to fall on the old days of corporal punishment, as it seemed to workin our day - more or less. However, society is very different today then when I was a kid, and I am not sure it would be as effective as it may have been. I promised myself not to be ignorant to my childrens' worlds in the same way my parents were; but in some ways the technological and cultiral shift is far greater between my offspring (hardly children anymore) and I, and my parents and I. Yet, as I have worked hard to try and stay on top of it, I sometimes feel like a 1/2 blind person wearing foggles looking into a deep, dark abyss when it comes to their world.

 

Yet, I was talking to a mother of our daughter's friend yesterday. She is about 10 years younger than me (we had our kids relatively late.. daughter popped you just shy of my 40th birthday). We were talking about the challenges out 16/17 year old daughters face and when I started mentioning some of the things that they can do and kids their age get up to, she was in total shock and never had even heard of them. I explained the only way I have worked out how to deal with it with some degree of effectiveness is through educating my daughter; being ready to listen but not judge.. provide guidance and not decrees. You can tell them off, but not belittle them, etc. It was aimed at this mother a bit, because, well, both her and her husband try and control their kids' lives by not allowing them to anything. Yet, they were upset their other 20 year old daughter didn't tell them for over 9 months she was dating a fella... Maybe it had something to do with forbidding her from seeing boys outside of school until after she finished secondary school and using parentiung techniques that may have worked 50 years ago... Both of their girls are rebellious as anything.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[pmccarthy]

With the insights from ten grandchildren I think that quality of teacher  has an overwhelming influence on how children perform from year to year and the subjects they enjoy and do well at. A change in teacher can turn a kid from loving school to crying in the morning and not wanting to go.

[red750]

This has to be the most disappointing, and insulting, message to receive when you check your lottery ticket. (But I'm getting used to it!) Do they have to rub it in?

 

 

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

That lame old argument in support of state aid has been trotted out for decades.

Hardly a "lame argument". The numbers of students in non-government schools are large and like an overfull dam, releasing them would swamp the government schools, to the detriment of all. That is a fact.

 

9 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

If governments reined in some of the appalling rich private school rorts there’d be more for the needy schools- private snd public.

The wealth of the "Old School Tie" schools is the result of accumulation over many decades, as well as the exorbitant fees they charge. However, what percentage of the total population of school-aged children attend these "appallingly rich schools"?  The simplest, most equitable way to disperse the education budget would be to set a "per student" amount. But there are sure to be reasonable arguments to rebut that idea.

 

[red750]

Guys, I think this education subject deserves a thread of its own. The is meant to be a lighthearted chuckle thread.

[Old Koreelah]

8 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I explained the only way I have worked out how to deal with it with some degree of effectiveness is through educating my daughter; being ready to listen but not judge...

Parenting is the most important job we’ll ever do, but there is no training and certainly no accreditation process- any damn fool can have kids!

We all know people who should never have been allowed to breed.

 

The best parents show a good example to their kids, keep open the channels of communication and allow their offspring to wear the consequences of mistakes.

 

From an early age, kids want to contribute, to do their bit, to show what they are capable of. Our urban society frustrates this natural urge; a leading cause of kids’ going off the rails.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I was thinking the same, Peter.. Mods.. is it possible to take the last posts and splinter it off?

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

5 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

any damn fool can have kids!

I can't say I liked Steve Martin's early movies, but this is one of my favourtite movies of all time for a few reasons..

 

Go straight to about 1:55 of the clip.. I think it will speal tomes

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

Hardly a "lame argument". The numbers of students in non-government schools are large and like an overfull dam, releasing them would swamp the government schools, to the detriment of all. That is a fact.

If we closed all private schools in Aus tomorrow, and sent them to existing state schools, I would definitely agree with you.

 

But.. that, to be honest, is an oversimplification of OK's point. This article (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/16/private-school-funding-has-increased-at-five-times-rate-of-public-schools-analysis-shows) provides some illuminating reading.. including this: "In that decade, funding for private schools – including Catholic and independent institutions – increased by $3,338 per student, adjusted for inflation, compared with $703 per student for public schools."

 

Now, if the governments put in a plan to phase out private school subsidies over, say, 5 years, and redirect every penny into the state education system, allowing enough time to a) purchase additional land, or even the now lower valued private school properties to house them.. and recruit teachers from the private sector that were going to lose their jobs as a result, etc., etc.maybe it's not a lame argument, but certainly diminished.

 

In real terms, "While commonwealth funding of state school students increased by $1,181 over the decade, state spending dropped in that time by $478 per student, the analysis found."

 

Whether this is accurate or not, the government has no business funding private schools. It is a further division to keep the rich from being poor, and the poor from becoming rich.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jerry_Atrick

[facthunter]

The Promotion of many of these schools involves a shame factor Like "you are condemning your precious kid to an inferior life If you don't enrol him/her with us". Unsurprisingly some of the results are full of expectation of a life of "Entitlement" where other's are considered deserving of their Lowly fate.   Nev

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

"In that decade, funding for private schools – including Catholic and independent institutions – increased by $3,338 per student, adjusted for inflation, compared with $703 per student for public schools."

Careful! Simply comparing the number of dollars is misleading becasue there was more purchasing value in a dollar in 2012 than there is now - inflation.

 

How much is paid per non-government school student and how much per government school student. One hopes that the amounts are close to being equal. What is the dollar amount difference between funding per non-government student tens years ago and the amount today - in 2012 dollar values? Did the difference between that paid for government school students in 2012 compared to 2022 only require a $700 increase. 

 

Which ever way we look at it, education is underfunded in all schools. And we are finding that what we are paying to educate the population is not producing the economic return that it should. But while Big Business does all it can to minimise production costs by sending work away from Australia, then passes on all the costs and whacking great mark-ups to Australians, what use is education apart from promoting navel gazing.

[facthunter]

The mark-ups based on full landed cost   are something like 500% or more.... Nev