Maiden speech

[Old Koreelah]

I am wondering how such a muslim ban would work in practice. I have mentioned my neighbours previously. One of them from Pakistan and one from Afghanistan with a young child. He works in the meat works (no not halal but where you and I get our meat from). I hear him leaving for work at 6:30 AM. at night he drives for Uber I also hear him going out late at night. His wife looks after their child but also does some translation work. She is worried about how much he works but they are saving for a house. As far as I know, they do not attend any mosque. apparently, during Ramadan, he fasted, not because he is devout but I am thinking more like a cultural affectation (eating an easter egg does not make you a christian) He did not continue as he got a nasty case of the flu. I looked after their toddler for half an hour during an emergency, later she brought me a bottle of wine, she said is this good we don't drink so we don't know. (it was good). She wears a scarf although sometimes when I chat to her outside given how windy it has been her scarf starts to blow off, she usually just takes it off and holds it. So would such a ban deem this family an unacceptable risk to public safety? Should they have been allowed to come here and if not should they be removed?.

For many years I worked as a music teacher in Canberra. One of my colleagues was a woman called Azadeh. She was born in Iran although she refers to herself as Persian. Her family we academics in Iran and as intellectuals were in danger. They escaped and were accepted by a European country (not sure which country) Azadeh came to Australia to study (at her own expense) and now has a Phd and is a hardworking and a brilliant professional, I do know that her birth certificate lists her as Muslim although as far as I know, she observes no religion. In her spare time, she does pretty serious mountain climbing. Would a Muslim ban have prevented her living here?

 

It is all very well to propose a Muslim ban but how on earth would it be achieved? What criteria would be required? How do you determine who is a Muslim, do you ask them? Not being a Muslim must surely be easy to fake. My concern is this, once you start going down the road of making laws or rules based on ethnicity or religion or how someone looks it is a slippery slope to an ever-expanding list of people who frighten us.

 

The notion that "they" are somehow colonizing us needs to supported with hard evidence.

I have no argument with your excellent points, Octave. I cannot see any easy solutions.

 

I suspect quite a few hardline Moslems believe they are colonising us- but how can we find out if the topic is verboten?

 

 

[spacesailor]

They.ve banned the communist in Australia.

 

So why not ban the Christian.s as well.

 

The other religions can be banned when they.ve done the same amount of damage to the young of our society.

 

spacesailer

 

 

[willedoo]

They.ve banned the communist in Australia.

I must have missed something there, spacesailor. We should tell the Communist Party of Australia about that.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I don't think they've banned the communists, just that everyone knows it doesn't work particularly well.

 

 

[octave]

I have no argument with your excellent points, Octave. I cannot see any easy solutions.I suspect quite a few hardline Moslems believe they are colonising us- but how can we find out if the topic is verboten?

I think it comes down the quality of the discussion. I have no problem with arguments based on facts and figures but I would suggest that most people don't know what the immigration rate is, the ethnic or racial backgrounds they are from and in what percentages. How many learn English, how many are gainfully employed etc.

 

It is very easy for politicians and others to exploit fear and anxiety that already exists and to give it a focus.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I totally agree, but some government policies are never discussed because they enjoy bipartisan support from the large parties. Who is pushing for an ever-increasing national population?

 

Just as our society is throwing off the shackles of one religion, another, much more restrictive ideology emerges as a future threat to our liberal way of life.

 

 

[facthunter]

I really would worry of some religion is going to cause more trouble than the past ones have Going back to the Crusades and having christianity forced on you by French Kings and a Roman mini state. It all looks about the same or slightly better. Wars never stopped in Europe. IF you aren't a certain religion you get nowhere in some companies, even now.. They are all as bad as each other. Man created HIS god in his own image. THAT's the problem. If they all left people alone we would be better off. If you believe it, do it, but don't force it on ME. I've had enough for one life time and crap is still happening. in the name of various angry people in the sky. Nev

 

 

[old man emu]

Australia has always had the same problems with ethnic stereotyping. If you search TROVE for "migrant crime", this little gem pops up from 1954

 

Migrant Crime Enquiry Sought - Chronicle (Adelaide, SA : 1895 - 1954) - 15 Jul 1954

 

or this,

 

Migrant Crime Alarms Police - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 13 Dec 1951

 

We seem to have this ingrained xenophobia. I suppose what gets most of us worked up is our own inability to handle the change in the make up of our society. Those of us who complain about excessive immigration from non-European countries feel that the Aussie stereotype that we grew up with is being eroded by non-European immigrants whose native cultures are so different from the European Christian one.

 

And in using the description "European Christian", I'm not referring to any current theology, but to a social system based on the Judeo-Christian theology.

 

 

[nomadpete]

I have never suggested any kind of 'banning' immigrants from any particular part of the world, or of any particular religion. Historically, prohibition of anything, has been a failure. However, it might be a workable balance to ask any potential newcomer to sign a declaration to the effect of:

 

"I hereby declare that I believe all people have a right to be free to live according to their own beliefs. I promise that I will never take any action, physical or otherwise, against any person because of their beliefs."

 

Sure they could lie. But it would allay a lot of fears, and at the same time reinforce the expectation that Although they are welcome, there are boundaries.

 

I have seen contempt displayed by otherwise normal workers of that 'newer' faith. I have also heard of one who entered a local gun shop to purchase. A AK-47. When told of the difficulties involved, he purchased a hunting knife. His parting words were "they insulted myself and Allah. I will put it right". Now, to be fair, I didn't see or hear anything in the news to indicate that he acted on his threat. But these instances are real, and in time will result in unpleasant outcomes.

 

We should not expect, as Marty suggested, to have to fund a secret army of spies to go into anyones houses of worship to try to find what is really happening.

 

About the only thing I really agree with is that there is no simple answer.

 

Except that just maybe, we should give up on eternal population explosion in our country. Whilst there is still plenty of food and water. And electricity (sorry, Neil)

 

 

[Marty_d]

I have also heard of one who entered a local gun shop to purchase. A AK-47. When told of the difficulties involved, he purchased a hunting knife. His parting words were "they insulted myself and Allah. I will put it right".

While I agree with your required statement, I do have a question about the occurrence above.

 

What was the provenance?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Australia has always had the same problems with ethnic stereotyping...Those of us who complain about excessive immigration from non-European countries feel that the Aussie stereotype that we grew up with is being eroded by non-European immigrants whose native cultures are so different from the European Christian one...

I agree, OME. We've seen it all before...but this time it's different.

 

Australia has been greatly improved by the ethnic diversity of our immigrants, but we should be very wary of the growth of the idealology that many are compelled to follow: a religion/political movement that can never be made compatible with our liberal Australian values.

 

...it might be a workable balance to ask any potential newcomer to sign a declaration to the effect of:

"I hereby declare that I believe all people have a right to be free to live according to their own beliefs. I promise that I will never take any action, physical or otherwise, against any person because of their beliefs."...

That would be a good start, Octave, but most immigrants appreciate their new country and become good citizens. The problem is the religion/political movement that some of their Australian-born children seem duty bound to spread- by barbaric act of violence.

 

 

[nomadpete]

"Most"

 

I totally agree that MOST are fine. But now we have, as you mentioned, an ideology where a minority of individuals who are capable of creating serious damage to people and property. That was not the case when I was young. I grew up in Villawood (still a detention centre). I was part of a minority of kids whose parents were born in Australia. Never saw a problem. So I'm not happy to compare today's issue with our past.

 

As so often happens, it's a minority that spoils things for the majority. So far we have been lucky that there hasn't been a successful event carried out where innocents are killed. But I do believe that it's just a matter of time.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Marty, by 'provenance', did you mean 'circumstance'?

 

The proprietor of the gun shop is a close friend and the story came to me as a 'you wouldn't believe what happened at work today' type of story. He didn't hear what had actually been said to the customer to get him so motivated.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Theirin lies the problem. It's almost impossible to question the Islamic faith without insulting someone who feels duty bound to exact a terrible revenge. My response (if I was brave enough) would be to ask why do mere humans have to defend this invisible being? Being all-knowing, all-seeing and omnipotent, surely he can fight his own battles.

 

Those raised in this cult are instructed to spread the faith by fair means or foul. Those wishing to leave (and there are plenty) risk death for doing so.

 

Even a virus couldn't be designed better.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Australia is supposed to be a secular society but we have holidays based on Christian beliefs, the governments give money to religious schools and many politicians have hard core religious beliefs so humanitarian issues such as dying with dignity etc hardly get a look in. There are religious cranks and hard liners within all religions although at every census the number of Australians who define themselves as having no religion increases dramatically. In 2016 30.1% declared no religion and 9.6% declared nothing, some form of Christianity was 52.1% and Muslims 2.6%. The problem is anything that is a bit unsavoury that has Islam or Muslim involved somewhere gets huge press and publicity. If there is 1% of the 2.6% who are Muslims and hard line jihadist types that is 0.026% of the population. Not a huge number to control I would have thought. The sooner religions die out the better, though I am not holding my breath.

 

 

[Yenn]

One great thing about the increased Muslim population is that we don't have christmas carols on the radio and TV from November onwards to Christmas.

 

 

[Methusala]

The world's current problem with the hyper savages of "extreme Mohammedanism" is another bait and switch game led by the elites who seek hegemony or the chance to rule without opposition. Just as the Spanish Inquisition was a strategy to enlist common folk in a religious push to supplant the Moors' rule with the Roman version. Extreme violence was employed harnessing mass fear to aid the conversion from one elite to another. This violence was not described in the Christian Bible as it is not in the Quran. Saudi Arabia, wield enormous power due to the oil revenues which accrue, not to the common folk, but to the royal family which happen to rule with an iron grip. Research on the web will quickly reveal how intimately involved were the Saudi Arabian power elite in the events of 9/11. The Muslim religion, as practiced for millinia, is a largely peaceful philosophy and both sides, Shia and Sunni, existed in close proximity with one another for centuries. Some theories argue that it was the CIA who planned and executed the extreme divisions between members of the two groups. Nevertherless it is obvious that this division has helped the people in charge of oil revenues to maintain their ascendancy and keep the people trapped in poverty and violence.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...The problem is anything that is a bit unsavoury that has Islam or Muslim involved somewhere gets huge press and publicity. If there is 1% of the 2.6% who are Muslims and hard line jihadist types that is 0.026% of the population. Not a huge number to control I would have thought...

All true KG, but by your maths that means 6,500 potential terrorists to be monitored 24/7.

 

That would require an army of highly trained, well-equipped surveillance people; paid for by we taxpayers. Government are already using excuses like this to ratchet up the powers of security services and wind back our civil rights. No matter what we do, a few are bound to escape detection and commit atrocities, as has happened in Britain.

 

...The sooner religions die out the better, though I am not holding my breath.

I agree, but this particular religion is expanding and spreading.

[Methusala]

I think that nearer 0.01% may be an over estimate of the number of lunatics likely to present a threat. Meanwhile there are many others, not Muslim, that also present a real threat. See today's news about the informant granted refugee status for his work as an undercover investigator embedded in the Banditoes gang. As I gathered from the reports, following this work he had done, the Aussie authorities could not or would not grant him protection following an unsuccessful attempt on his life by the same gang. He now lives in Canada.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... Extreme violence was employed harnessing mass fear to aid the conversion from one elite to another. This violence was not described in the Christian Bible as it is not in the Quran...

Many would dispute this; some translations make it clear that it is the duty of every good Moslem to kill unbelievers and to spread the faith by any means.

 

We're told that Moslems should follow the example of the Prophet; he is reputed to have inflicted some particularly nasty violence on anyone resisting his excesses.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Maybe the 1% of 2.5% should have been 0.0001%. I don't know but I do think it is the fear factor whipped up by the media reporting that is the biggest problem. Yes there is the odd nutter fundamentalist jihadist Muslim who goes crazy and has a go at beheading someone or whatever. It outrages everyone including 99.999% of the Muslim community. But what about the Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist nutter who has a go at a similar thing. The publicity factor is not as newsworthy.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Maybe the 1% of 2.5% should have been 0.0001%. I don't know but I do think it is the fear factor whipped up by the media reporting that is the biggest problem. Yes there is the odd nutter fundamentalist jihadist Muslim who goes crazy and has a go at beheading someone or whatever. It outrages everyone including 99.999% of the Muslim community. But what about the Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist nutter who has a go at a similar thing. The publicity factor is not as newsworthy.

Sadly KG, all this is true, but the difference is in their holy books; I am unaware of writings in any other religion that instruct the faithful to kill, maim and subjugate unbelievers, much less an organised movement to do this.

 

 

[octave]

Sadly KG, all this is true, but the difference is in their holy books; I am unaware of writings in any other religion that instruct the faithful to kill, maim and subjugate unbelievers, much less an organised movement to do this.

Just as the vast majority of Christians do not take seriously the bibles instructions to stone adulterers, I would suggest that the vast majority of Muslims are just as half hearted.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Sadly KG, all this is true, but the difference is in their holy books; I am unaware of writings in any other religion that instruct the faithful to kill, maim and subjugate unbelievers, much less an organised movement to do this.

You obviously haven't read the christian bible then... try Leviticus

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Just as the vast majority of Christians do not take seriously the bibles instructions to stone adulterers, I would suggest that the vast majority of Muslims are just as half hearted.

Thankfully very true Octave. Many Islamic hardliners are trying to drag everyone back to the old, medieval ways. Islam has not undergone the reforms that allowed Christianity to move on from those barbaric practices.