Syria

[spacesailor]

Dax said,

" they would have little trouble getting here ".

But waiting another millennium and Andromeda will be here, All around us !.

Hopefully those neighbors will be kind enough to ' steer around our little blue dot.

spacesailor

[Dax]

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

But a person with an enquiring mind would be driven to find the facts. That's curiosity

That's true, but in my opinion they are restricted by their ideological leanings and that's represented in the scientific claims and you have to realise I'm looking at it from an observers point of view, not an ideological human.

 

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

Mankind has sought facts in a way that satisfies the consensus.

Again true and the human consensus mostly revolves around and ideology, which is not reality but fiction.

 

7 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Why not? Aboriginals are a continuous c. 60 - 80K year old civilization and they still do

Completely untrue, one of the problems in my family was my fathers sides aboriginality and it's something I struggled with when young. My grandmother a Wiradjuri woman taught me a lot about the culture of their beliefs and my Tasmanian grandfather of the Pydairrerme people on the Tasman Peninsula, taught me how to care for the land.

 

All Aus indigenous were animists, they had no god, but considered the laws of nature and it's off spring to be the ruling entity on earth and they are not far from the truth. The stories of serpents etc, were all designed to teach the children respect for nature and the power it holds, If you ever listen to an indigenous teaching children there is not worship, just respect and understanding of how everything works. They had an extremely advanced society, unlike today's ideological humans, they knew they are part of the land and so have to care for it. Ideological humans see the land as exploitable without any thought for the long term outcomes and ideologues don't give a stuff about the future, it's satisfaction today and bugger tomorrow.

 

When christians invaded, slaughtered and enslaved them they were also forced to follow the christian god insanity, or be put to death which is par for the course of the god cult. Today many are extremely confused and lost in this barbaric bizarre world and That's very sad, if people knew about the true indigenous culture and how sophisticated it was, they'd be very surprised.

[Dax]

7 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I would also argue that believing in god is not a per-requisite to be an ideologue, exploiter or tribalist.

Missed that but, but agree with you, the vast majority of humanity are ideologues, they believe in the advertising and vested interests industries and not the reality before them.

[Dax]

5 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Your musings are basically hinting at a well known human trait. As a species we have a instinct driven urge to have tight tribal groups.

For many humans that's the case, for some it's the opposite, I belong to no group tribe or family. Since my youth have been virtually alone in my approach and understanding of life, have to close friends, the rest are just nice acquaintances.

 

5 hours ago, nomadpete said:

And, Dax, although we would advance faster without needless conflict, it is also possible that humanity may continue as it is, without wiping itself out.

It's possible but highly unlikely, we are digging up more coal and fossil fuels every day, human population continues to grow at an unbelievable rate, the complete opposite of what the elites claim they intend doing. The chances of human societies surviving the next ten years at the rate we are going, it almost zero. But I hope I'm completely wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

Dax that’s a pretty sweeping statement. How do you know anything about black holes, star systems, speed of light or dairy products?  Because of the patient, often tedious work over lifetimes, of the very scientists you are criticising

 

Got interested way back in the 1970's when involved with people from Melb university, who were studying physics and quantum mechanics. We have some very long inspired discussions around the chess board, they put forward their knowledge and I gave alternatives to the norm.Then the drummer in our bands daughter was involved with a theoretical quantum physicist and we had some big discussions surrounding the universe it's origins and operation. I made lots of it up just to put om on the spot, but i also learnt a hell of a lot which helped me devise my theory of the universe and its operation.

 

Have nothing against scientists, just some of their conclusions when it comes to the universe, terrestrial science is pretty spot, on so there's nothing to query about that.

[Jerry_Atrick]

31 minutes ago, Dax said:

Completely untrue,

OK - my bad.. not a god per se, but mythical creatures that are celebrated and used to try to understand/contextualise the environment and teach/influence behaviour.. in the same was that god is used.. but with different means..

 

31 minutes ago, Dax said:

but considered the laws of nature and it's off spring to be the ruling entity on earth and they are not far from the truth. The stories of serpents etc, were all designed to teach the children respect for nature and the power it holds, If you ever listen to an indigenous teaching children there is not worship, just respect and understanding of how everything works. They had an extremely advanced society, unlike today's ideological humans, they knew they are part of the land and so have to care for it. Ideological humans see the land as exploitable without any thought for the long term outcomes and ideologues don't give a stuff about the future, it's satisfaction today and bugger tomorrow.

That was the point I was trying to make.. The "dreamtime" creatures are a belief system, but is used productively rather than destructively. Therefore a belief system is not necessarily a pre-requisite to ideology or exploitation. I learned that even tribalism isn't quite the same thanks to moiety. But there is a belief in mythical creatures that somehow mystically transformed or created none the less.

 

And aboriginals, unlike other societies have lived continuously for all that time - there have been skirmishes between clans as I understand, but I was surprised at the difference between my shcool days "teaching" of aborigines v. learninf the truth such as over 240 separate "nations" on the continent - each with their own language and culture; and many trading with each other.  Yet no major wars (at least recorded) in all that time.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

38 minutes ago, Dax said:

ideological leanings

 

39 minutes ago, Dax said:

human consensus mostly revolves around and ideology

Dax,

You keep using the word 'ideology'. What exactly is your definition of "ideology"?

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, Dax said:

, I belong to no group tribe or family. Since my youth have been virtually alone in my approach and understanding of life, have to close friends, the rest are just nice acquaintances.

Watch out, Dax.

The nature of humanity and its tribal instincts, means that non-conformists are discriminated against by all groups.

 

We are a minority, mate.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Watch out, Dax.

The nature of humanity and its tribal instincts, means that non-conformists are discriminated against by all groups.

 

We are a minority, mate.

 

[Dax]

13 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

And aboriginals, unlike other societies have lived continuously for all that time - there have been skirmishes between clans as I understand, but I was surprised at the difference between my shcool days "teaching" of aborigines v. learninf the truth such as over 240 separate "nations" on the continent - each with their own language and culture; and many trading with each other.  Yet no major wars (at least recorded) in all that time.

That's because children are told they are stories and not real, but represent the natural energies of the earth and they can then understand how nature works. Their societies although not technologically advanced were highly advanced socially and astronomically. Most tribal clashes were over the interchange of people between tribes, either kidnapped women or agreed transfer from one tribe to another. the rest of the time the lived peacefully and many tribes came together at different times of the year to celebrate natural events.

 

What people are told of very different to the facts, the claim they were all nomadic is ridiculous, the only nomadic people were the desert people, the rest depending on the environment and climate lived in humpy's, stone and timber houses. Tasmanian indigenous lived in big timber homes, which the christians after forcing them out used those homes for their religious services, after which the went on aboriginal hunts. 

 

There's no correlation with a god, god created the universe in 6 days, that's very different compared to nature created the earth and all it's life and each part of nature played a specific role. The natural serpents that created rivers and gorges, are used to explain how they are formed, so kids can grasp the concept without becoming confused, as they are when they are told this mythical bloke just made them out of nothing.

[Jerry_Atrick]

48 minutes ago, Dax said:

That's because children are told they are stories and not real, but represent the natural energies of the earth and they can then understand how nature works.

No.. they are taught about mythical creatures that try and explain how nature evolved...

 

48 minutes ago, Dax said:

What people are told of very different to the facts, the claim they were all nomadic is ridiculous

Agree with this.. When I did Aussie law (of all things), I got a much better appreciation of Aboriginal culture than my secondary school taught me (albeit in the late 70's, early 80's)...

 

48 minutes ago, Dax said:

god created the universe in 6 days,

Only Abrahamic religions see god like this. There are far more religions that have different gods, which is why I mentioned aboriginal gods (dreamtime creatures).  Geneshi (spelling is no doubt off), is but another; how many Greek gods (OK, not of modern Greek Orthodoxy), etc., and god knows (pun intended) how many gods throughout south eastern Aisa, Africa, Southern America, Pacific Islands, etc, that live today despite the conquest of Christian missionaries and the spread of Islam (note there is one Abrahamic religion that does not indoctrinate others.. for another conversation, though). Then you have Waheguru of the Sikhs, and what is the god of Buddhism? [edit - a rhetorical question]

 

That is probably why I referenced dreamtime creatures as gods for Aboriginals. Maybe they aren't in the Abrahamic sense, but, they are abstractions that govern much of what makes the culture. And, in this case, I would not argue that it is a good thing.

 

BTW, I do like a good debate!

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

AGNOSTIC: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

 

ATHIEST: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

 

So, agnostics fall into two camps - those who don't know if God exists, or those who don't know the nature of God.

 

The first group can be divided into those who say this God business is all bull, and those who say they don't really know, but believe in God to be on the safe side. The second group  are those who believe whole-heartedly in God but don't know the nature of God, and spend their time trying to work it out. They are the theologians.

 

Notice that when the word for the deity is written in those definitions, the upper case '"G" is used. To me, that implies that both these words refer to the deity of the Abrahamic religions. When the deity of non-Abrahamic religions is spoken of, the lower case "g" is used. 

[Dax]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

No.. they are taught about mythical creatures that try and explain how nature evolved...

This is where the confusion comes in, the mythical creatures represent the energies of nature in all their different forms. They are one and the same thing and each nation had it's own individual take on the dream time stories, they are not all the same as is trying to be made out by some indigenous elitists.

 

My totem is the sea eagle, which is why I like to live high up with a view all around and of the sea. I'm at peace under those conditions and where I live represents those conditions excellently.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Dax

[Dax]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

AGNOSTIC:

I see agnostics as fence sitters, a foot in each camp and most are apologists for religion.

 

Many atheists I see as much in denial as the religious, they deny the existence of anything outside the material world. Have experienced and seen to many things to deny the possibility of some form of conscious existence outside the material physical universe. My NDE showed me that side of things and it was a massive shock to the system, but have no idea what it is or how it works.

[onetrack]

Dax - So, tell us more about your NDE, and the events you experienced when you were "on the other side of the curtain". Many books have been written about peoples NDE experiences, and the most fascinating stories I find are the ones provided by the children who had NDE's. Their NDE stories are less likely to be coloured by life experiences, prejudices, or outright lying.

[Dax]

13 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Dax - So, tell us more about your NDE, and the events you experienced when you were "on the other side of the curtain". Many books have been written about peoples NDE experiences, and the most fascinating stories I find are the ones provided by the children who had NDE's. Their NDE stories are less likely to be coloured by life experiences, prejudices, or outright lying.

Raining here, been raining non stop since last night so stuck inside. My NDE, happened during an operation to remove the bottom lobe of my right lung, which was filled with a cancerous growth, caused by they say, my exposure to chemicals and trauma during my active service.

 

My recollection was lying some where dark, warm and comfortable, it was very peaceful but could hear noise and people talking, but it was nice. Opened my eyes and could see a small light way off in the distance which suddenly started coming toward me getting bigger and bigger until I fell into it and could see people working on a body below me. Then it went blank and felt this really cold fearful feeling, when I looked around, could see the hole I'd come through closing so desperately tried to get back into it before it closed, whilst still watching those below.. Thought I'd made it when heard them say we've lost him again, then things went blank and woke up in a hospital bed with all these tubes coming out of me.

 

Problem was, didn't have a clue where I was, who I was or what had happened and things had really changed, things looked more colourful, people seemed to have shimmering colours surrounding parts of them. When the surgeons came to check me, was able to describe the entire operation to them which turned their faces white and for some reason seemed to understand what was in their minds.

 

When got out of hospital saw everything in a different light, the world seemed mad and nothing I believed in or did seemed worthwhile. Before was obsessed with being successful, climbing the social ladder and becoming richer and respected.

 

Struggled with this for a few months as my health started to go down hill, was sent to P. Mc Callum clinic and underwent chemo and radiation treatment but after 3 lots of that, felt I'd rather be dead than undergo that torture. Then hurt my back and a friend recommended I go to chiropractor to get if fixed. Didn't even know what was a chiropractor but set up an appointment. The chiro looked at the scars on my back and told me he was not allowed to treat cancer patients, but recommended a natural healer he knew.

 

Being desperate went along to what I thought was a con job and ended up working with him for 9 months, he told me he couldn't help me but could teach me to help myself and understand what had happened to me during the operation.

 

After that set out on a journey to understand myself and that's when playing music came into my life. What I learnt saved my life and from there things slowly fell into place until felt comfortable within myself. Mind you it took decades to come to terms with the massive changes within me, which was like waking up from a dream and looking at the reality of life for the first time. Went to many psychs and therapists, but came to the conclusion they needed more help than me. A psych helped me with the simple statements he made, saying I suffered from severe PTSD from my active service and life on the streets.

 

That was the final clue and since life has been good, once you know the cause of your problem, it's easy to come to terms with it and find a fix. Went from being given 18 months to 3 years to live at 26, to at 76 being fit and healthy. Went to many psychics and healers to understand how I saw things, but in the end realised it boiled down to me to find the answers as they were ideologues and lived in fantasy, even though they seemed good at reading people.

 

Have found some of the answers, but each answer gives more questions and now just look at each answer I come up with as another learning curve to be accepted as a part of evolving my understanding.