Tommy Robinson - about to be tried once more for Hate crimes against Muslim rapists.

[gareth lacey]

So being muslim and Pakistani you cannot call them out and vilify ,if they were white catholics we would , this political correctness has to stop, they were convicted for their heinous crimes and they were all Pakistani muslims, tell it like it is,they should be vilified we don't want their cultural preferences in our western society, maybe you guys need to take the rose coloured glasses off.

 

 

[octave]

So being muslim and Pakistani you cannot call them out and vilify ,if they were white catholics we would

 

Yep, even though I am an atheist I do not vilify my Catholic friends as child rapists as you suggest, I mean should I? That is what you seem to be suggesting. Just like I do not "vilify" my Catholic friends I also do not vilify my Muslim neighbour. To put it more clearly my neighbour is a Muslim from Pakistan and I do not believe he is a rapist, do you think this is foolish of me?

 

 

[gareth lacey]

No, what I said is they the ones that were tried and convicted, as should all people who commit these crimes, and if a particular group(catholic,muslim,Baptists etc) should be vilified and if not born in their adopted country send them back strip them of their residency/citizenship we should not be afraid to voice opinions about this it seems the muslim religion is very touchy about what you say and criticise HUH? last time I looked islam is not a race. They need to look at themselves first(the religious zealots), they are far more racist than I

 

 

[octave]

No, what I said is they the ones that were tried and convicted, as should all people who commit these crimes, and if a particular group(catholic,muslim,Baptists etc) should be vilified and if not born in their adopted country send them back strip them of their residency/citizenship we should not be afraid to voice opinions about this it seems the muslim religion is very touchy about what you say and criticise HUH? last time I looked islam is not a race. They need to look at themselves first(the religious zealots), they are far more racist than I

 

Yep the zealots do need to look at themselves just as men who rape need to look at themselves but not all men.

 

HUH? last time I looked Islam is not a race

Not sure why you said this, I do know Islam is a religion and not a race and nothing I have said would suggest that I don't know that. Not sure if that is what you are suggesting, just not sure why you said that.

 

 

[nomadpete]

It has been documented that certain demographic groups are more likely to be a risk to the safety of our young ( particularly) women.

 

What is wrong with focussing our remedial attention to this group? That is the approach which is generally accepted for risk minimisation.

 

 

[Marty_d]

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Martin Niemöller, early post-WW2

 

 

[nomadpete]

All that aside, Marty,

 

To maintain community safety, the community must assert common community values. If one particular segment of the community poses a risk to the rest ( and that segment fails to control it's own extremists) the the majority of the rest of the community must take steps to control the bad behaviour of the minority. Even our humble police force is tasked with this, but lately there seems to be some new "no go" zones.

 

 

[octave]

It has been documented that certain demographic groups are more likely to be a risk to the safety of our young ( particularly) women.What is wrong with focussing our remedial attention to this group? That is the approach which is generally accepted for risk minimisation.

nearly all rapists are men, perhaps we should focus "remedial attention": on men or men of a certain age or socioeconomic background. If we are to follow your advice perhaps we should analyse the statistics to see which demographic groups are implicated in violent crime. Are the majority of perpetrators of violence in this country Muslim? Or perhaps Asian Or bogons?

 

 

[Marty_d]

All that aside, Marty,To maintain community safety, the community must assert common community values. If one particular segment of the community poses a risk to the rest ( and that segment fails to control it's own extremists) the the majority of the rest of the community must take steps to control the bad behaviour of the minority. Even our humble police force is tasked with this, but lately there seems to be some new "no go" zones.

Well that's the thin edge of the wedge, isn't it. Once we start deciding that a particular demographic poses more of a risk than others, where does it stop?

 

If we concentrate more on hyped-up fear than on the freedoms of our democracy, we will end up losing them. All governments love the chance to flex the "law and order" muscle to win a few votes. Short term gain for long term pain.

 

 

[nomadpete]

One problem with your fear of "hyped up fear" is the fact that real statistics are not being made available to us. That situation Foster's blind fear. However, it does seem that certain groups have a higher percentage of socially disruptive individuals.

 

We (in our Aus society), already practice (even use different laws) social discrimination to 'treat' some easily identified groups that don't conveniently integrate. For instance there are different legal framework for Aboriginal and Torres Strait folk. And there are certain suburbs that whilst having the same laws as others, have such a high percentage of diverse ethnicities that the police require either ethnic liaison officers or similar, to operate in those areas.

 

Thin edge of a wedge? That's the argument that the extreme right wing godbotherers used against gay marriage.

 

Nobody is trying to ban all men as a method of minimising rape. However some places are trying to blame all women because a minority of males believe any unescorted female wants/deserves to be raped.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thin edge of a wedge? That's the argument that the extreme right wing godbotherers used against gay marriage.

Ow! That one hurt.

 

However unlike the Corey Bernardi argument that gay marriage would lead to people marrying animals, I'm talking actual mission creep here. Laws brought in today to weaken freedoms in order to be able to subject one demographic to more intense scrutiny than others (if indeed such laws are needed, given we don't have a bill of rights in this country) will inevitably be used to oppress some other group not even considered in the original scope, when the government of the day sees some cynical benefit in doing so.

 

If there's more crime in specific suburbs, of course you have more police. Whether these suburbs have higher ethnic concentrations or higher bogan concentrations (eg Bridgewater, Chigwell & Risdon Vale near Hobart) doesn't matter. But I don't believe that racial or religious profiling should be used - because 99.99% of any demographic are law abiding people who don't deserve the suspicion and oppression that would inevitably follow officially sanctioned discrimination.

 

For an example have a look at China's social credit system. The general idea is that the entire population is constantly watched with facial recognition cameras and given a score which fluctuates according to their actions - good law-abiding people will have a high score which allows good healthcare, travel, education etc. However those not considered good citizens will lose points which will affect their ability to move around or get jobs. Works fine if you agree with the government in all things and don't do anything considered unacceptable (for example, buying alcohol regularly may be an indication that you have a problem and your credit rating slips). But if you're a journalist or blogger who doesn't agree with the government's every policy, then all of a sudden you have a sh*t rating and can't even catch a train out of your village.

 

 

[nomadpete]

But if you're a journalist or blogger who doesn't agree with the government's every policy, then all of a sudden you have a sh*t rating a

Well, isn't this what Tommy Robinson is being subjected to?

 

By the way, the whole purpose of profiling of criminals is to narrow down the focus to highlight the individuals rather than a broad group. It is a process that reduces the likelihood of branding a large group's (which seems to be the major concern). It may well be that one step in profiling might turn out to be race, or home address, along with whatever else helps narrow down the focus.

 

 

[octave]

Back to the subject of this discussion.

 

Tommy Robinson was not charged with "Hate crimes against Muslim rapists". He was charged with repeated contempt of court. The reason we have these laws is to prevent a mistrial. Any defending lawyer would seek to have a case dismissed or delayed because of widespread knowledge of the details of the allegations. It also makes it easy to dismiss potential jurors. Ever noticed the language the police use at a press conference? Using the term "alleged offender" and not naming them is not a nicety for the benefit of the criminal it is to ensure that the investigation and prosecution are not jeopardized.

 

Here is an informative article on contempt of court laws in Britain.

 

Contempt of court: a matter of legal judgment

 

Here is more analysis of this case https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tommy-robinson-arrest/

 

Now Phil I know you will probably suggest that Snopes is false news but if you wish to convince me of anything all you have to do is provide checkable facts. Not particularly interested in hysterical hyperbole.

 

I have no doubt that there were failings in the investigation of these events as there have been with other child exploitation rings, some groups within the clergy got away with for years. We need to learn lessons from these events. I think there was a reluctance to act initially perhaps due to not wanting to be labelled as racist. I think a rational debate could be had but once we slide into hysterical hyperbole there seems little point.

 

 

[nomadpete]

For what it's worth, according to Wiki (which has its own cross references), ethnicity might be seen as a significant part of profiling the offenders in at least one country....

 

"In August 2018 SVT reported that rape statistics in Sweden show that 58% of men convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born outside of the European Union: Southern Africans, Northern Africans, Arabs, Middle Easterns, and Afghans.

 

the Swedish Government has declared that young women are facing the greatest risks and that most of the cases go unreported"

 

 

[octave]

For what it's worth, according to Wiki (which has its own cross references), ethnicity might be seen as a significant part of profiling the offenders in at least one country....

"In August 2018 SVT reported that rape statistics in Sweden show that 58% of men convicted of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born outside of the European Union: Southern Africans, Northern Africans, Arabs, Middle Easterns, and Afghans.

 

the Swedish Government has declared that young women are facing the greatest risks and that most of the cases go unreported"

 

 

The 58% (which by the way I am not doubting) is from 843 district court cases over 5 years. The breakdown is:

 

416 European

 

197 Middle East and North African

 

134 Other Africa

 

96 Other non-Europe

 

Rape in Sweden - Wikipedia

 

isn't the obvious that the first target to profile here would be Europeans. In terms of reliable statistics, we would, of course, need to compare numbers of offences compared to actual numbers of those groups, however, the largest single group of rapists in Sweden seems to be Europeans.

 

Look I am not against analysing figures in an attempt to reduce these kinds of crimes. I guess I don't really believe that this guy is motivated by wanting to protect women from sexual violence and is not influenced by the ethnicity of perpetrators and the victims.

 

Again I have no problem with using identifying characteristics to detect crime, being in a motorcycle club does not mean you are likely to be involved in bikie gang violence and drug dealing. We should not cast a net so wide it is useless. In terms of preventing crime, I am not sure what we can do with the information that a lot of crimes are committed by people with a mental illness (although most people with mental illnesses do not commit crimes) Many family murders are committed by men whose wives have left them (although most men in this situation do not harm anyone.)

 

There is also a risk of being distracted from other crimes being committed. I grew up in Adelaide during the time of many child abductions. The Beaumont children etc. Parents would scare their children with dire warnings to not talk to strangers etc. and whilst it was reasonable advice no one seemed to mention that most kids were harmed or even killed by a family member. We need to be able to talk about these things without sliding in hysteria.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Totally agree about avoiding sliding into hysteria. However it would be equally silly to turn a blind eye to trending situations. Remember that those convictions listed represent a large, disproportionate amount of convictions, (per capita) coming from a minority demographic group of the overall male population.

 

I note that Sweden has implemented a strong system of integration for newcomers. Their government website has a lot of detail and it specifically promotes special treatment for certain demographic groups. Including special encouragement to get them employed. Furthermore, Sweden has a program of compulsory training and education aimed at making newcomers employable and integrated into the community.

 

It looks like their government has identified a problem and taken sensible steps to address it.

 

All that is admirable and we could benefit from similar initiatives here. (But I'd rather use a broad brush and apply the same education to everyone, not just refugees)

 

 

[nomadpete]

Octave, you touched on another elephant in the room.

 

Mental health.

 

We would live in a better place if only we invested in better mental health programs.

 

For instance, nobody in their right mind would put needles in strawberries. Nobody in their right mind commits violence or paedophillia. Sorry for the thread drift but it is sort of related to the whole discourse.