What's good (and bad ) about Russia?

[Dax]

On 14/10/2021 at 7:53 AM, Marty_d said:

If you have intelligent parents then not only are you likely to benefit from Nature, but they'd also make the effort to encourage your education, so you're getting Nurture too.

Have always wondered what real intelligence is, it seems the norm is highly programmed in the education system and capable of remembering irrelevant rubbish. Take them out of their comfort zone and they are lost. 

 

I call being intelligent those who see a problem situation needing a fix and devise a workable method and the majority of those have little education. Life is the best educator, sadly most kids today never get to experience life outside a school room, urban jungle and Ph screen.

[Yenn]

Do an IQ test and you will see that it is dependent upon education. Some o the questions will only be answerable by people who speak a certain language or have education in specific subjects. Not all, but enough to skew the results.

It is also possible to boost your IQ on those tests, by reading how to do it books, which explain how to succeed.

What really amazes me is that some people believe that as civilisation progresses, our IQ's get higher.

[octave]

39 minutes ago, Yenn said:

What really amazes me is that some people believe that as civilisation progresses, our IQ's get higher.

The increase in IQ scores is known as the "Flynn effect".    There has also been an increase in DQs (development quotients) in infants.  This certainly rings true in my family.  My IQ is higher than my father's but lower than my son's 

[nomadpete]

I don't think it's helpful to make sweeping statements about intelligence being related to education levels.

 

I've met well educated people who were smart, and those who were not. Same goes for uneducated people.

 

I'm safe. I'm only half educated, having only reached the very average heights of a tradesman.

 

And I've often dealt with the very varied capabilities of (Well paid) university educated engineers. Some were very good, but others had to be house trained before they became productive.

 

One of them had to be told,

"Look in my tool box. There is only ONE tool that you are allowed to touch. Now, tell me which one it is"

Blank stare.

So I handed him the little ball pein hammer.

More blank stare.

"This is called an Engineers Hammer because for a hundred years it's been the only tool that engineers need."

"Why" he asked.

"Engineers used one of these to tap the wheels on a train, to test them for cracks. It was their job. Sadly, we don't have any trains here, but you can hold it anyway. But LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE"

 

Luckily most uni grads were ok, once they found their niche.

 

"You come up with the ideas, and do all the maths, and I'll make it work for you."

[nomadpete]

And I'm pretty sure that the Russians had similar experience with attempting to use education to increase the usefulness of people.

 

A head filled with facts is great for trivia night at the pub, but unless the skills of lateral thinking, logical reasoning, and problem solving are learnt, it doesn't advance civilisation at all.

Edited October 15, 2021 by nomadpete

[spacesailor]

My writing is quite good, legible by all.

BUT when l hold the pencil, my mind Looks solely for Grammer.

AND then, no input tp pencil.

Have that same problem with the computer, " idea ", switch on PC, HAND TO KEYBOARD.

BLANK.

spaesailor

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by spacesailor
Spelling

[Dax]

"Intelligence has been defined in many ways: the capacity for abstraction, logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, critical thinking, and problem-solving."

 

In my life experience, a formal education reduces intelligence by a great deal and the more educated the less intelligent most are. Did an IQ test many moons ago and failed miserably, all the questions had to do with having educational knowledge and not common sense, or logic.

 

Had a muso friend who was an mechanical engineering teacher, yet he always brought his car for me to fix because he couldn't work out how to diagnose the problem from the manual and was prepared to spend money on taking it to a garage. Most times I adjusted the points and timing and that was it, yet he taught mechanical engineering and didn't have a clue outside his educated understanding.

 

Same with musicians, many times have had uni educated muso's applying for a gig with us, only to discover they could only play with music sheets. They had no idea what feel timing or rhythm was, unless it was written down in musical notation, making them useless for a country rock band at the time, we learn by ear and nothing else.

 

Then there was the time was working at a uni doing some drainage work and we watched these highly educated professors and students changing a tyre on one of their cars. It was hilarious to watch, especially when they went to put the spare tyre on and it fell over hitting the hubcap and spilling the wheel nuts into a drain, where they had set the hubcap away from where they were working. The drain had water in it and not possible to lift the grate, they were beside themselves, trying to work out who to call to get more wheel nuts or to get a tow truck to take it to a repairer.

 

I walked over in my dirty mud covered shorts and T-shirt and asked if they needed help, to which one replied how can you help with no nuts to secure the wheel. Simply said, take a wheel nut of each wheel and use those to secure the wheel, then you can drive it to where you can get some more nuts, like Repco.

 

The look on their faces said it all, no thank you, just grumbling as they did what was suggested then drove off. Us lowly workers had worked it out instantly using our intelligence, they tried to solve be it using their education and were pissed off at the outcome. See it all the time, intelligence comes from life experience, understanding and pure logical thinking, something most over educated lack in bucket loads.

 

The IQ tests are designed to boost the ego of the elitist over educated, to try to make them look intelligent, but the reality is the opposite when it comes to real life. Have met a few highly educated who are also intelligent, but those are people who decided they needed to learn a bit more for what they were working on.

[octave]

16 minutes ago, Dax said:

Same with musicians, many times have had uni educated muso's applying for a gig with us, only to discover they could only play with music sheets. They had no idea what feel timing or rhythm was, unless it was written down in musical notation, making them useless for a country rock band at the time, we learn by ear and nothing else.

 

 

I have to jump in here and disagree.   The only job I have ever done is being a musician and music teacher.   I did my first professional music job in 1979 and it is all I have done in my working life.  I have taught many hundreds of students some to  them to be professionals.

 

You are not wrong to say that you can be a fine musician without being able to read music however this does not hold true with all forms of music.   I have taught many great musicians who played by ear but needed to be able to read music in order to find work.   

 

My firs job as a musician was as a fulltime musician in the RAAF.  As well as the usual military BS we played school concerts, formal classical music concerts.    As well as full band we had big band jazz ensembles classical ensembles and even a rock band.     You could be asked to perform in any of these ensembles at a minutes notice and were expected to perform to a professional level.     It is simply not possible to have many hours of music memorized and playing by ear is fine for 3 minute ditties or for improvisational pieces it is simply not possible for more complicated music.

 

In no way am I bagging playing by ear but it does come with limits.    An example would be that as a working musician I have  received a phone call looking for a dep (replacement) for an unwell musician for the orchestra of a stage show.  You simply cannot just jump in to the orchestra pit and play by ear.   The musical arrangements are complex, you are not necessarily playing the melody but a harmony part.    

 

I had a sax student who was quite a good player but was unable to read music.  His problem was that he had been asked to join a sax quartet.    He was technically able to play the music but in order to learn his parts someone had to play the parts to him. This slowed down the process. 

 

Again I am not bagging people who exclusively play by ear but bagging people who read music is a little short sighted.      A symphony orchestra could never function without reading music.  Sure they can and do play things by memory but the source material is just too complex not to be written down.

 

I have been playing clarinet/flute/sax professionally for 42 years and sure I probably could not just slot into you band but you certainly could not slot into a big band or sax quartet or orchestra playing complex arrangements purely by ear.

[Fliteright]

Education at the school level is overrated, always has been, one ‘learns’ after they leave school, much like a pilot, you need no formal education and yet it’s possible to end up driving a bus with a couple of hundred lives in yr hands, trust me I know😂

 

[octave]

4 minutes ago, Fliteright said:

Education at the school level is overrated, always has been, one ‘learns’ after they leave school, much like a pilot, you need no formal education and yet it’s possible to end up driving a bus with a couple of hundred lives in yr hands, trust me I know😂

 

I don't  totally disagree with this however if we use the example of a pilot there are procedures to be learned that allow pilots to navigate using procedures that are shared throughout the industry.   Modern airliners are complicated pieces of machinery.  The pilot cannot possibly know every shingle technical detail of the aircraft.   There is much formal education surrounding what actions to take given certain engine malfunctions.    A pilot could go many years without being faced with an engine problem.  On the other hand the people who built and designed engine have a better understanding of what actions should be taken.   At some point this information must be learnt by the pilot.   I agree in that a lot of what people learn comes from experience hopefully built on a sound education in that area.   As a slogan for an airline I don't think "fly with Eagle airlines, our pilots are self taught" is going to be successful.

 

I am a great believer in the power of self education but this does involve using the knowledge that has been built up over history.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I can't say I would jump on a plane where the pilot hasn't been to flight school... and passed...

 

 

 

[onetrack]

There are plenty of aircraft crash investigations that record where reportedly highly-trained, and reportedly highly-skilled pilots failed to carry out even basic actions to recover aircraft that had gone out of control - usually as a result of another failure by those pilots to recognise and identify faults, and to carry out correct recovery procedures.

In the classic case of AF447, all 3 pilots, including the Captain, failed to recognise and correct a glaring upset flying condition.

Just makes you wonder how many "qualified" people have cheated all through their courses, or cheated on the very important parts, and ended up still not understanding aircraft systems completely - despite becoming "qualified".

 

I've seen a mechanical engineer who had to ask another engineer why his electric shaver wouldn't work. When his compatriot asked if he'd emptied the whiskers out recently, the first engineer looked puzzled - then he became astounded, as his compatriot showed him how to flip open the cutters, and empty out the cut whiskers remnants.

I don't know where he thought the cut whiskers went. This was a bloke charged with overseeing the calculations and construction of large engineering projects.

[nomadpete]

The concrete jungles are filled with strange dumb humanoid creatures masquerading as people.

[willedoo]

Skill and ability aside, sometimes the training is a bit lax. Remember that Sukhoi Superjet 100 that crash landed and caught fire in Moscow a while back, killing around 40 passengers. They took off and had a lightning strike which knocked out some systems including automatic mode. The pilot turned back and tried to land manually with a full load of fuel, did a big heavy bounce, driving the main gear into fuel which ignited.

 

It turned out that he'd never done a manual landing before, but was a fully qualified airline pilot under that country's lax system. A bit worrying to think that the bloke flying the plane has never landed manually. I read an article that said that Chinese pilots do quite a lot more real training than their Russian counterparts have to. Maybe an example where there wasn't enough education and practical experience combined.

[onetrack]

Or the so-called "highly experienced" Russkie pilot and co-pilot who demonstrated their combined lack of basic flying skills by flying their new Sukhoi Superjet 100 straight into a cliff face on Mt Salak in West Java, when they were totally unfamiliar with local terrain, and obviously made no attempt to familiarise themselves with the location of the local mountainous outcrops. It's even worse when you learn the crew ignored the TAWS warnings, blaming it on a system malfunction. 

[willedoo]

6 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Or the so-called "highly experienced" Russkie pilot and co-pilot who demonstrated their combined lack of basic flying skills by flying their new Sukhoi Superjet 100 straight into a cliff face on Mt Salak in West Java, when they were totally unfamiliar with local terrain, and obviously made no attempt to familiarise themselves with the location of the local mountainous outcrops. It's even worse when you learn the crew ignored the TAWS warnings, blaming it on a system malfunction. 

In that whole thing, I really felt sorry for the Indonesian cabin crew that died with them. Those girls didn't deserve that; it was really sad.

[Dax]

15 hours ago, octave said:

Again I am not bagging people who exclusively play by ear but bagging people who read music is a little short sighted. 

Not bagging anyone, stating a fact and have played in big bands that read, was in a backing orchestra for the pommie show "carry on comedy", it was a 14 piece and I played bass. They read, I played by ear and it was simple, took one run through to get it right and except for the drummer and pianist who played with in a cabaret jazz rock band, they didn't even know I wasn't reading.

 

There's a huge difference between classically trained musicians and popular music muso's and as for complicated pieces, try some of the modern guitar, sax or keyboard solo's without sheet music and see how you go just by listening to them. Then have a go at some of the contemporary out there jazz compositions which are extremely complicated without a musical score.

 

Have taught lots of people to play guitar, drums and bass, have them playing in a few minutes and playing songs after one lesson just with chord charts and training their ear. I also play tenor sax, keyboards, blues harp and a bit of violin, all by ear.

 

Music is the language of the soul and the universe, it's a natural thing easy to understand and learn by becoming part of it, by experiencing and feeling it within you, not on a cold sheet of music.

 

Music notation was very useful when there was no way of recording it so it needed to have all it's components set out to be played properly. Once the ability to record music came along, that evolution opened the door to people being able to feel the music and replicate it note for note without musical notation. That means they feel the music, not just replicate it and when you feel the music and become part of it, that's when it becomes a creative experience and you don't get that by reading because you have to stick to the notation rather than become the musical expression.

[Fliteright]

Experience and good training guarantees nothing! Plenty of so called qualified drivers are statistics these days! 
You can make a 1000 buses all identical right down to the colour of the toilet flushing button but you will never make two drivers the same despite all the hairy fairy feel good CRM and HF bullsh1t! 
Human nature cannot to controlled!

[octave]

Dax most musicians I know and do and have worked with do both.  When playing with smaller ensembles with more popular music it is more normal to play without music but at some stage there would have been written music as part of the process.  It is simply not possible to paly a Mahler symphony by ear.  If you take a popular piece of music or song it is not just a case of of playing the melody.  Usually the arranger will arrange the piece, this arranger may also be a player.  They will decide on style, harmony and who is paying the melodic part and how that is handed on to another player.   

 

 

Yes there is a difference between classical and popular indeed there are more genres than just these two.   You should not assume that there are 2 distinct worlds and a musician must inhabit one world or the other.    Here is a example.   In the 70s there was a well known band called 'The Sports"   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd-oYM88niQ   I knew the guitarist in this band.  He may look like another pop/rock guitarist playing by ear.    Martin was a classically trained musician and therefore was well equipped to carry on a great career in music.   Later he composed for film and television, produced some well known records and for many years  was head of Screen Music at the Australian Film, Television and Radio school.    He was able to achieve this career because he was a well rounded musician.    Again most of the musicians I know absolutely do both.

 

As I said I have earned my whole living from music so I am not talking as a hobbyist.   In order to earn a decent living playing music you have to be versatile.    For me this meant I could be playing   20th century atonal music in the morning followed by popular music in the evening.    This is different to playing in a small band that does a set list at a weekly or even nightly gig.    I have played with a singer who needed the music to be in a lower key so we had to transpose on the fly down a third.  As a professional you would just do it, it was expected. 

 

I recorded a clarinet part for the sound track to a computer game.   It was a fairly rushed job.  The composer email me the charts and the next day we recorded.   How would you have achieved this?  Asking the composer to send a recording (that may not exist yet) is kind of unprofessional.

 

Consider the film music industry.  Just to choose an iconic film score think about the process of recording the musical sound track for Star Wars (it is not just the main theme it is hours of music)   This was recorded by the London symphony Orchestra.    My point is that the composer (John Williams) has to communicate his music to the musicians.  How would you suggest this be done in an aural way?  Does John Williams hum the second bassoon part to the player?   Remember that this orchestra was also doing regular concerts with totally different repertoires 

 

 

As in many areas of life a love of performing music is enhanced by understanding the theory behind it.    I know why people seem to like "Take Five" and I know the musical device that makes it different. Knowing this I can find other music that uses the same device.    More knowledge is not a bad thing and is nothing to be afraid of.

 

Another job in the music industry is that of session musician.   Again this usually does not usually  afford an oppurtunioty to learn by ear.   Often the composer will make changes at the last minute.  

 

As a music teacher I try to make  (my more serious) students become well rounded musicians who could make a decent living if they wanted to. 

 

Being able to read music opens up a whole world of music just like reading words.    I can play by ear when it is appropriate (a degree in music demands it)  but this is not always the best way.   

 

Another point is that musicians may have music in front of them they at the stage of performance are not reading each individual note.   There is a saying in musician circles "the score should be in your head not your head in the  score. The piece in fact is mostly coming from memory however in a a long concert of complex music no-one could remember everything.  It may be Stockhausen tonight but Mozart tomorrow.

 

I have absolutely no problem with musicians who play by ear and I am in awe of those who do it well but this does not make musician's who read charts inferior. Both of these methods have pros and cons and the best musicians do both.

 

 

 

Dax if I linked you to a recording of a sax quartet (you do play sax don't you) would you be able to pick out the alto part and play it by ear?

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by octave

[Fliteright]

I’ve played guitar for 50 years just for fun on and off (still got my Maton) and I play the keyboard but also just for fun (Clavinova 601), never could read shaped notes, tried but simply couldn’t be bothered. Dad played piano from a early age and could read music, together we had music fun and to most that’s all that matters👍

[Dax]

1 hour ago, octave said:

Dax if I linked you to a recording of a sax quartet (you do play sax don't you) would you be able to pick out the alto part and play it by ear?

Have yet to come across a piece of music I couldn't pick up and play within a couple of run through's.

 

With respect, your reply shows you have very little knowledge of the popular music industry. Haven't said all trained musicians can't play by ear, there are many who can and they have mostly been in popular bands during their formal training. But have come across heaps who don't have a clue and have tried to play with classically trained musos many times to find they just cant cut it without musical scores to look at. Have a large recording studio, have and still work as a session muso, all I know play by ear and can pick up a song within the first few bars.

 

A professional working musician can play any genre and like myself have a repertoire of well over 500 songs, adding to the list almost daily as we hear music we like or think it would fit in the band. A real working band that's not at the top of the pile doesn't have set repertoire for a gig, but will play what turns the audience on and are willing to play requests not in their repertoire, if they know how it goes.

 

As for making money, within the pro ranks, the mantra is play anywhere, any time and any thing they like and we stick with that. We may play a country music one day, the next rock the next blues,then a gig where we can play originals and the next, out their jazz, or a mixture depending on the audience reactions. Have made a lot of money out of playing music, that's all I'd do if the building and hospitality business wasn't so lucrative. Luckily have a kid who is the same as me in music and building and now runs the show, so once the virus goes away if that happens, will be just music for me and can't wait.

 

Have written and collaborated on many songs over the years, most writers start off with either a line, melody or song heading. When the structure is set up and put down, the creative production begins and from there it gets developed into what the writer wants conceptually. Have written a number of scores for adverts and a couple of short movies, they are easy to do and no notations, we follow the script and develop what we feel fits the scenario. Of course that can take a few minutes or days and when everyone's satisfied with a particular version, that's it. Nothing written down other than sets of chords, today you can load it into a program which will create the score for you, but it can never get the feel coming from the composers. That comes from the heart and not a piece of paper. I carry a note book with me all the time and write down lines and ideas for songs and video albums, have many hundreds of started songs, most don't go anywhere, but some become useful when recording someone else and they are lost at some point, can sometimes drag out the note book and find a line or chord pattern to fit

 

Playing by ear is the only real way you can get the feel the song projects, the vast majority of hit songs, are all created with just chords rhythms and feel that's what attracts people to them. The writer puts their heart into it and that comes out in how they express the music, which others playing that song can grasp the feeling built in and either replicate as in a cover band, or interprets them to make the song their own interpretation. You can't do that with music notation, you have to stick to the score or the band falls apart, but with musical feel, it's easy to pick up.

 

Try being a fill in muso, where you walk up with a band you've never played with, have no idea of their songs, are given the key to a song and off they go. If you can't fit in within the first few bars, you never get another fill in job and I can walk up and play with anyone, even doing their own material which have never heard and no one knows the difference because you have the feel within the first couple of bars and from there it's easy to fill up the empty spaces and enjoy yourself.

 

Did a walk up with Midnight oil in Canberra one night playing bass, their bass player wasn't up to it so filled in for him. Never really listened to their songs and just had a set of chords on a piece of paper stuck to an amp, but we got through the night and they were very happy with me. But must say, can't stand Garret, arrogant piece of cow shit.

 

Play tenor in a contemporary jazz quartet, not the sort of music you'd hear in a pub or many other places, because it is very complicated, but simple and most can't work it out as they miss the subtle but technical aspects which to most sound like a load of garbled notes. But the true muso or musical connoisseur,will sit back and enjoy the depth, variety and tightness of the group.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dax

[octave]

4 minutes ago, Dax said:

Have yet to come across a piece of music I couldn't pick up and play within a couple of run through's.

Sorry Dax but that cannot be true and is easily testable.    If I post a link to a piece perhaps you could demonstrate your prowess?

 

14 minutes ago, Dax said:

With respect, your reply shows you have very little knowledge of the popular music industry.

 

Sorry to sound perhaps a little arrogant here but I have earned my entire living from music and music education.   I don't claim to be brilliant (like you) but I have always had enough work in all genres of music.      Your comment about me having "very little knowledge of the popular music industry" is rather condescending.   You have no idea what I have or haven't done.

 

21 minutes ago, Dax said:

Have written and collaborated on many songs over the years, most writers start off with either a line, melody or heading.

I would be interested to hear some of your work, don't be shy.

 

1 hour ago, Dax said:

 

Try being a fill in muso, where you walk up with a band you've never played with

Yep, this was a big part of my work life.    

 

22 minutes ago, Dax said:

You can't do that with music notation, you have to stick to the score or the band falls apart, but with musical feel, it's easy to pick up.

Not true,  This is my old band doing a long distance collaboration with the US air force band.   Note that the solos are generally freely improvised.  This does not make it fall apart.   "Minor Distance" - Featuring The Airmen of Note and the RAAF Saxophone Sections  Whilst the improvised solos are an opportunity to give your own interpretation the ensemble parts require a shared interpretation with dynamics, tome colour articulation and balance between the different parts.

 

28 minutes ago, Dax said:

Playing by ear is the only real way you can get the feel the song projects, the vast majority of hit songs, are all created with just chords rhythms and feel that's what attracts people to them.

 

There is some truth to that but again musicians who read music still play by ear also.  The aural course at the Con is of an extremely high standard.    Even my less advanced student who do music exams have to pass an aural component.  This involves  hearing a melody and playing it back as well as identifying intervals and being able to sing intervals.  At a higher level this involves a lot of skill.     

 

The Beatles did not have formal music knowledge however this does not mean that were not musical. Something they did rely on was the more formal knowledge of George Martin.  What made them successful was the collaboration.  Here is a link to a great podcast  https://www.producingthebeatles.com/new-episodes  This goes into who did what and contains some historically interesting behind the scenes recordings.

 

1 hour ago, Dax said:

Try being a fill in muso, where you walk up with a band you've never played with

 

Yes this was a lot of my musical life. 

 

I am in no way trying to belittle you although I understand that you think I am naïve and inexperienced. That is fine by me.   I have a lifetime of experience you may think I am making that up but that is not my problem.  The musicians I know and have worked with whether they are formally taught and read or play by ear or both have great respect for the various methods of making music, this is professionalism.

 

To end where I started off

1 hour ago, Dax said:

Have yet to come across a piece of music I couldn't pick up and play within a couple of run through's.

 

 

I would suggest this is a tall assertion.   Perhaps saved a little by the qualifier "yet to come across".    If you can play anything you hear by ear with a couple of run throughs I would love to hear you do it. Are you saying in any style? Let me know if you are up to it and I will post a link.

[Dax]

2 hours ago, octave said:

Sorry to sound perhaps a little arrogant here but I have earned my entire living from music and music education.

I understand where you're coming from, elitism. It's normal for the classically trained to feel superior to common stage trained musos and no different to the approach of the university educated towards those who have lived a life, not just been educated into it.

 

As for your challenge, have nothing to prove and all you're doing is reinforcing the superiority complex displayed by those thinking because they have a formal education, they are far superior to those whose education comes from real life.

 

You never see those types in working bands, they play structured notation music or just teach and fluff their feathers. Put them into a working band and they wouldn't last 5 minutes and have seen that time and time again when they think because they are classically trained, they can do anything, but they can't play spontaneously. or by ear.

 

Try playing by ear Steely Dan's Aja album, which in my opinion is one of the best fusion rock jazz albums of all time. Played in a band that did the entire album, I was the lead singer and we learnt those songs in one afternoon by listening to the record and played them 2 days later at a private gig that had asked for specific music and Aja was top of the list. Simply beautiful music and our renditions went down really well.

 

Have played every style and genre of music except hard core classical which is unbelievably boring after hearing it once or twice, so quite confident in my ability to fit in. As you doubt that, shows your lack of knowledge in how the real music industry operates. Know hundreds of musos more than capable of just sitting in and being able to pick up the music almost instantly, many do it way better than I can.

 

You've earned your living from regimental training and teaching, we have a saying in the industry, those who can't, teach, those that can, play. All my musical knowledge and ability comes from learning on stage, not a class room or regimented regime, but creatively and spontaneously.

 

There is a big difference between your musical world and mine, what's your experience in playing in a full time working band doing at least 3 gigs a week and sometimes more than 5 a week year in year out, all at different venues, writing music, running a recording studio, creating new music and running a booking agency and band management. We played 14 gigs in 5 days over one xmas period and it nearly killed the band as everyone was so tired, but we did it and made sure we never booked that many again as we have to travel up and down the coast to fit them in.

 

2 hours ago, octave said:

Yes this was a lot of my musical life

So you've played in rock, country, jazz and blues bands as fill in muso and toured.

 

2 hours ago, octave said:

I am in no way trying to belittle you although I understand that you think I am naïve and inexperienced.

That's your viewpoint, not mine and you're typically trying to make out your programming is better the my learning in real time. We come from totally different backgrounds in music and from your denial of a real musos ability to walk up and just play in any band and genre, is a sign you have little experience within the popular music industry and how it works. That's what happens every day in bands and recording studios, session musos do it all the time.

 

Most people coming into a studio want to produce their own songs, but have no idea how to structure them so they make sense and are appealing. A session muso/producer can sit down, run through and introduce ideas to help the artist structure the song so it makes sense, draws the audience and adds dynamics to the music. Those that want to stick to their ideas and won't take advise, normally waste their money.

 

2 hours ago, octave said:

I would suggest this is a tall assertion.   Perhaps saved a little by the qualifier "yet to come across".    If you can play anything you hear by ear with a couple of run throughs I would love to hear you do it. Are you saying in any style?

Never met a real muso who can't do that, maybe except for classical notation music and the classically trained. But who want's to play that boring ancient stuff, it's nice first time but after that extremely boring. Have a lot of classical albums in my collection, prefer Stravinsky and Wagner to most others as there's interesting dynamics within those scores.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Dax

[octave]

1 minute ago, Dax said:

I understand where you're coming from, elitism. It's normal for the classically trained to feel superior to common stage trained musos and no different to the approach of the university educated towards those who have lived a life, not just been educated into it.

I haven't read your full post yet but I have to answer this ASAP. No you are wrong, I have great respect for people who play by ear and I don't believe I have ever denigrated anyone who uses this method.     I have however pointed out that for many types of musical work you need to get to grips with large amounts of material in a short time. I think perhaps your belief that I am elitist or denigrating people who play by ear may be something you are imagining. 

[octave]

13 minutes ago, Dax said:

As for your challenge, have nothing to prove and all you're doing is reinforcing the superiority complex displayed by those thinking because they have a formal education, they are far superior to those whose education comes from real life.

At no stage have I said this.    To sum up the discussion you are disparaging me and my experience.    We may practice music differently but let me be clear I have NO PORBLEM with the way you do music.  I am not criticizing your style but you are definitely criticizing my style. What I am saying is that some musician jobs require good sight reading, that is a fact. Many jobs do not and that is fine as well.

 

18 minutes ago, Dax said:

So you've played in rock, country, jazz and blues bands as fill in muso and toured.

Country  no rock yes blues yes toured yes.  Back in the day we used to around 240 engagements a year both in Aus and overseas.

 

20 minutes ago, Dax said:

We just come from totally different backgrounds in music and from your denial of a real musos ability to walk up and just play in any band and genre, is a sign you have little experience within the popular music industry and how it works. That's what happens every day in recording studios, session musos do it all the time.

Ah more denigration  I have done all of these things..  

 

22 minutes ago, Dax said:

As for your challenge, have nothing to prove and all you're doing is reinforcing the superiority complex displayed by those thinking because they have a formal education, they are far superior to those whose education comes from real life.

That's fine but a forthright statemen that you can play anything put in front of you is easy to say.   I am not suggesting you read notation but you are suggesting you can play anything by ear within a few goes?

 

Your main message seems to be how brilliant you are and how crap others are.   Again playing by ear is a fantastic skill and I am in awe of those who are great at it (I am average and I am secure enough to admit that)    I am not saying that every musician should go the formal route but the fact remains that some jobs require it and that is just how it is.

 

The best musician I know don't go around saying how good they are it is self evident in their playing.

 

Anyway clearly I am not the expert you are.