Don't get me wrong here, But I LIKE Donald Trump.

[Yenn]

So Trump wins the election and there is much rejoicing in the Republican camp. The Democrats wonder what happened. Again!

Then suddenly Trump is un controllable, the Republicans become a scared as the democrats, so the only thing to do is get him declared incapable, which has been obvious to all the rest of us for ages. So now we have the first female President and also she is really only minority American in her background.

And we all lived happily everafter.

[red750]

No. If Trump is re-elected then declared incapable, Pence takes over. What could be worse?

[Marty_d]

That's true.  Trump at least has no firm religious beliefs, despite his pandering to the evangelicals.

Pence on the other hand is a true believer.  They're bloody dangerous.

[old man emu]

The polls will close in California at 1:00 pm Sydney time on Wednesday. From 10:00 am Sydney time we will start getting early voting figures from the US East Coast.

 

Our 6:00pm news might be reporting breaking news of riots on the East Coast and Mid-west.

[Yenn]

We do know that there will be hardly any news from anywhere other than the USA.

Has there been as much fear and loathing in any previous US election? Have the shops been boarded up ready for rioting before? If not what has changed and who is responsible?

[old man emu]

Strewth! It's gunna be close. The Pollsters were fooled again, methinks.

[Jerry_Atrick]

So far largely peaceful - hope it keeps that way

[onetrack]

As I predicted, it will go down to the wire. Probably only a handful of votes, and it will take days, and maybe even a week or more, for it to play out.

[old man emu]

I think that we have had the wool pulled our our eyes by the media. Do we know the same as Joe US-Citizen about conditions in the USA and how they have changes over the past four years? We are missing something. 50% of American voters can't all be nut cases or complete morons that we think would be the only ones to support Trump. What would make a Pennsylvania coal miner vote for an out and out capitalist? What would turn the same person against a person who hopes to improve the health and well-being of workers and their families.

 

We sometimes say that Americans our our cousins - descendants of Mother Britain, but I'm beginning to think they are a brudda from a different mudda. We just don't know how their culture has formed their thinking.

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

We sometimes say that Americans our our cousins

old man emu, you should wash your mouth out with soap.

 

But on a more serious note, I think it comes back to what I've said previously about the sleeper vote. Also Trump voters are less likely to respond to polls. Potential Biden voters hate Trump so much, they happily answer a pollster to sound off against the Donald. Then some are too lazy to show up to vote.

 

Look at our last federal election. The Labor camp were popping the champagne at close of voting. Half an hour later they were looking worried; after an hour they were absolutely depressed.

 

Even here in Australia, if someone said something good about Trump, the pack would howl them down. There would be a big number in the U.S. that keep quiet about their Trump support until election day.

Edited November 4, 2020 by willedoo

[kgwilson]

On 02/11/2020 at 11:33 PM, onetrack said:

I beg to disagree. I believe Biden will just fall over the line, and of course, it will be due to postal votes, which are running about 70% in his favour.

 

But I reckon Trump will try to claim the election on the night, just on initial counting, and try to claim all the postal votes counted after the polling places close, are fraudulent.

 

Of course, he has little chance of getting support for that stance - even a number of Republicans are saying that all the postal votes count, provided they have been properly verified.

Well OT you are on the money so far as at 10:23 pm EDT. Trump & republicans have done as you say & Biden may just get over the line gaining Arizona & leading in Wisconsin. Pennsylvania is the key now I'd say.

[Jerry_Atrick]

FWIW, I generally like Americans.. I have spent a lot of time in the US noth on holidays and working - and from Dallas to Bismark; from San Diego through to Boston. I have been in hicksvilles and refined areas. Yes, there are quirks about them that are unusual, yes, they have a fascination of guns and machismo - but it is not as widespread nor intense as the media make out. Their view of the socialist/capital divide is to the right of the rest of the world as well.. But generally, they are warm, caring and hospitable. The vast majority I have dealt with are not morons.

 

As i have mentioned, a friend of mine based in Portland (well, two actually, including one who used to work at Hazelwood Power) have provided very rational reasons as to why they voted trump. This is against the bacdrop of American culture - and they certainly have not agreed with everything he has done. On the domestic front, he has had his successes, economy he inherited hasn't broken, many people point in the US point to the COVID lockdowns in Europe that have not resulted in a much better outcome than the US. Re the white supremacy thing, well as sponeone pointed out, Proud Boys are led by a hispanic, so that would not indicate white supremacy, and, well, there is a divide in the US, so people are not shocked when things don't work out well on the racial front.

 

But the aspects which seem to endear people to their politicians in the US are:

• He made promises, and went about meeting them. He was thwarted by congress and he was able to use this to his advantage. As someone remarked, we didn't agree with everything he was doing, but he told us, we voted, and he did. This contasts to the "typical politcian" and goes to the next point
• He has been perceived to be a strong, is somewhat agrressive and unconventional leader - and he will stand up to the rest of the world for the [perceived] benefit of the USA. He won't let the USA be pushed around.
• He has proprosed what he is going to do (admittedly with very little detail).

On the other hand, Biden, the better pollie, has been seen to be weaker, more frail and I think his running mate is seen as the real president in the not too distiant future, which may have been seen as slightly underhanded. In addition, Biden's message was focused on "let's get Trump Out", not "This is why you should vote me in. This is evident in the loss of Florida - Trump has been calling illegal immigrants everyting under the sun a rapist and murdered, yet a lot of Latinos in Florida probably started off aas illegal immigratns, and even if they didn't, would they really appreciate a lot of their brethren being accused as so? In addition, the Latinos for Trump workled hard to instill the idea that they were running away from teh socilaist regimes and that the Democrats represented such regimes. It was clear, yet there was no focus on what looks like the group that tipped Florida to Trump.. That and other demographics such as the jewish retirees, etc.

 

I think it is too close to call; The democrats have the benefit of Pennsylvania still not having counted mail-on ballots; Trump (and possibly the Supreme courty with inconsistent rulings on states based on which way they are likely to swing) is trying to prevent counting after hours or of ballots post-marked prior to the election date but received afterwwards. On this, it would look like JB may come up trumps, but there are other states where the mail-in ballot may notbe so cut and dry. Still putting it slightly in favour of Trump.

 

[willedoo]

One thing I didn't know until tonight is that if Trump loses, he can run again in 2024. I knew that they can do only two terms but didn't know that the terms don't have to be contiguous. Given the close result, it would be on the cards and in 2024 he would be the same age Biden is now.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes, and it has happened once: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland

 

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, willedoo said:

old man emu, you should wash your mouth out with soap.

I didn't say they were close cousins. Second cousins, twice removed maybe.

 

What strikes me is, that although we think that Australians and Americans have had parallel histories and therefore should be nearly the same culturally, and we have absorbed a lot of the features of American culture,  there is something fundamentally different about our approaches to politics.

 

Is it because the development of America following their independence took place at the same time as Australia's development was still under colonial control? America has been free of colonial control for 250 years, whereas Australia only gained its quasi-independence about 75 years ago.

 

That difference in years of experience has had to have had an effect on their thinking. Perhaps also the idea they cultivated that success is built on personal risk taking almost to the point where each person is an island,  makes for a different political animal than the reliance on control from a distant ruler has created in the Australian political mind. It was only as recently as 1966 that our Government was lead by the staunchly anglophile, old school tie, Melbourne Club Menzies.

[red750]

I saw on TV this morning that Rudy Giuliani has lodged official Supreme Court complaints of ballot fraud in up to five states, claiming that where Dems controlled the electoral process, scrutiny by Rep officials was denied, with scruineers being kept at least 20 ft from where mail in ballots were being verified. He claimed that, as in the pst, many dead people had voted. Who is to say what votes may have been in those envelopes passed for countining - they could all have been Trump votes. 

[onetrack]

The American culture has developed and is largely ruled by the large Germanic immigration of the 1700's to America. During the struggle against the British, 300,000 German lowland mercenaries alone, were recruited by the Americans to fend off the British.

 

The Germans brought with them, a rebellious spirit of independence, a love of firearms, a powerful Fundamentalist Christian religious streak, and a generally warlike nature, which can be traced back hundreds of years. 

 

In 1990, 58 million Americans claimed Germanic ancestry. Couple that with many other Northern and Western European immigrants, all seeking a new life away from the permanent wars and strife and socialism of Europe, and you have a good pointer to the major differences between our culture and theirs. 

 

https://www.loc.gov/rr/european/imde/germchro.html

Edited November 5, 2020 by onetrack

[old man emu]

56 minutes ago, onetrack said:

a powerful Fundamentalist Christian religious streak,

I think that is the big difference between Australians and Americans. 

[red750]

In a live blog on the race to 270, at 1.45pm EADT Thursday,  the tally has:

 

                                         Biden                     Trump

 

Votes for President           264                        214

Senate                                    48                          48

House                                  204                         190

Governor                                23                           27

[nomadpete]

Maybe Australians are more cynical?

[willedoo]

Failing an upset, it's looking like a Biden win. One notable thing is the closeness of the result in most states which destroys the myth of a big repudiation of Trump. If he loses, close to half of voters voted for him which will increase the chances of another Trump run in 2024. Depending how Biden handles or mishandles the next four years, it's always possible to see another Trump presidency.

 

Biden will no doubt make inroads into clawing back some of America's previous good relationships with allies and he may make peace with some global institutions. But if the economy slips under him and he lets the war dogs off the leash, then Trump will still be in with a chance in four years if they haven't locked him up by then.

[onetrack]

The Australian personality is less of a military warmonger than the American personality, and less murderous. The Americans worship military service and firearm-carrying.

 

The Americans worship hunting and killing animals, and many Americans still rely on hunting for food supplies. The fact that America is full of turkeys, deer and aggressive wild animals, encourages firearm-carrying.

 

Australians are much less inclined to warmonger, but when forced to get involved with military operations, become very resourceful, and show great initiative.

 

Accordingly, they're also disdainful of military and official authority, and prefer to operate using their own "nous", rather than taking orders unquestioningly.

 

WW1, and the losses inflicted on Australians by incompetent British commanders, brought that attitude about. They will willingly follow a very competent Australian leader, as in the case of Gen Sir John Monash.

 

But most Americans are willing to carry firearms in daily civilian pursuits, and use them to kill "bad" people without concern.

 

They say firerarms are "just another tool", and downplay the ratcheting-up of killing ability with a high level of largely unregulated firearm ownership.

 

I think the difference between the two nations here, becomes one where the Americans have endured a lot of lawless behaviour, and a lack of policing, and a need to feel "self-sufficient", and be highly protective of their "patch".

 

The Wild West really was wild and lawless, and it took 3 or 4 decades to introduce some kind of civil behaviour. I also think white Americans are very fearful of the Negroid and South American races, believing them to be permanently, criminally-inclined.

 

We have had some areas of lawlessness here, and our fair share of murderous people - but overall, the Australian attitude towards firearms is totally different to the Americans.

 

Americans worship firearms, and firearm ownership is enshrined in their Constitution, and woe betide any American politician who tries to introduce "gun control".

 

Here, our founding fathers believed that unregulated ownership of firearms was a recipe for social disaster, and that the correct attitude is that firearm ownership is a privilege to be conferred only after a satisfactory reason to own a firearm is produced, and it is not a RIGHT, as Americans believe.

 

Strangely enough, Americans already have many tight firearm ownership laws when it comes to firearm possession - particularly military weapons. But thanks to the firearms industry lobbying power and protection, they have managed to ensure that military-grade firearms such as AK47's and M16's and AR-15's are agreeable firearms to be held by civilians - because they NEED them for hunting purposes.

Edited November 5, 2020 by onetrack

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

The American culture has developed and is largely ruled by the large Germanic immigration of the 1700's to America..

It’s said that after the Revolutionary War, English won as the official language for the new republic over German- by one vote.

[Old Koreelah]

7 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I also think white Americans are very fearful of the Negroid and South American races, believing them to be permanently, criminally-inclined.

I suspect many whites are very aware of how badly those minorities have been exploited and mistreated in the past and fear they will rise up and exact revenge on their white oppressors.

7 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Strangely enough, Americans already have many tight firearm ownership laws when it comes to firearm possession - particularly military weapons. But thanks to the firearms industry lobbying power and protection, they have managed to ensure that military-grade firearms such as AK47's and M16's and AR-15's are agreeable firearms to be held by civilians - because they NEED them for hunting purposes.

If anyone had the guts to challenge the 2nd Ammendment guff put out by the Gun industry, we might find that the “Wild West”  was not nearly as lawless and violent as the movies have told us. Gun control was widely imposed and accepted.

[willedoo]

5 hours ago, old man emu said:

What strikes me is, that although we think that Australians and Americans have had parallel histories and therefore should be nearly the same culturally, and we have absorbed a lot of the features of American culture,  there is something fundamentally different about our approaches to politics.

 

Is it because the development of America following their independence took place at the same time as Australia's development was still under colonial control? America has been free of colonial control for 250 years, whereas Australia only gained its quasi-independence about 75 years ago.

 

That difference in years of experience has had to have had an effect on their thinking. Perhaps also the idea they cultivated that success is built on personal risk taking almost to the point where each person is an island,  makes for a different political animal than the reliance on control from a distant ruler has created in the Australian political mind. It was only as recently as 1966 that our Government was lead by the staunchly anglophile, old school tie, Melbourne Club Menzies.

I think American attitudes and culture change slightly over time. This may not be so predominant these days, but in recent times gone by I noticed that the people we describe as a battler were looked upon as 'losers' in the U.S.. But maybe that cultural difference wasn't so real among the ordinary people in the U.S.. That opinion was based solely on what you see in movies &TV etc, so is it real. Do Americans really think that way. If so, that's a major cultural difference that might be related to our different founding histories.