Drug deaths and pill testing.

[facthunter]

Yes . Prohibition doesn't work. Just puts up prices. That's been proven time and time again. People who need this kind of thing (alcohol included when to excess) should know they are not doing themselves or their likely progeny any favours. Peer pressure is a big factor. You tend to go along with what your MOB expects. Dependency is a state that some have/acquire so you must have effective rehab centres working.. Getting off it is not easy. Years ago a drunk was someone who was ridiculed. A BAD drunk was someone you avoided. A MAN was supposed to be able to drink but be able to HOLD his liquor. Today, if you can remember anything that happened ,you didn't enjoy yourself. It's a bit tragic if you have to get physically sick and non compus to have fun. Alcohol abuse is up there as a problem with the others.. Nev

 

 

[Bruce]

I reckon we have the worst of both worlds... we have prohibition with all the negative things that come with it, but the prohibition is half-baked.

 

IF you are going to have prohibition, how about do it properly? Pay big rewards for betraying your supplier, poison some pills and put them back into the system ( with lots of publicity ), hold parents financially liable for their kids offending, remove welfare from offenders.

 

Personally, I do not support the prohibition way. A hundred years ago, drugs were not yet prohibited and none of my ancestors were addicts as far as I know.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Maybe your ancestors weren't, but thousands were. The British forced opium sales on the Chinese at the point of warship guns.

 

We've had this discussion before. I can legally buy and drink a bottle of vodka every day and yet I have no urge to. Legalizing recreational drugs and certifying their purity would have exactly the same effect on me. However it would remove the black market, take away profits from criminals and avoid the deaths of young people we've been seeing recently.

 

The heavy handed punishment model simply does NOT work. In the US they've had a war on drugs for 40 years. All it does is fill their prisons with non-violent offenders and turn them into violent ones.

 

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of stupidity.

 

 

[storchy neil]

The British forced opium sales on the Chinese at the point of warship guns. looks like I will have to rewrite history I recon neil

 

 

[facthunter]

They NOW know where you live neil. The brits haven't been that nice to a lot of people down through history.

 

Marty, Prison is called Bluestone College, not for nothing.. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

The British forced opium sales on the Chinese at the point of warship guns. looks like I will have to rewrite history I recon neil

Opium Wars - Wikipedia

 

 

[Bruce]

The power of capitalism has never been used against the drug trade. Turning the force of greed against the drug trade would be deadly effective.

 

Gosh, if there was a $2000 reward for fingering your supplier, I for one would be out there posing as a buyer.

 

So I don't agree that "heavy handed prohibition " has ever been tried in a smart way. Yes it has and is being done in a stupid way, indeed so stupid that I think it was designed by idiots or else smart men who wanted it to fail.

 

That said, I would still opt for the legalization way. Alas that won't happen soon and we will get more half-baked prohibition. But smarter countries are finding that moves towards legalization are working well, and one day we will take notice.

 

 

[Yenn]

I do not thik that testing drugs at festivals is a good idea. It is just condoning law breaking.

 

I did once try smoking some drug on a river bed in Nepal with a group of young Aussies and Yanks. I kept refusing but they were insistent so I gave in and took a few puffs. to their dismay I felt absolutely nothing, tried a few more, still no effect. I have never felt any desire to try anything again, except I do like a drink, but not enough to get drunk.

 

You say the youngsters try the drugs at festivals, but they may be youngsters to me being in their mid twenties, but they are not really youngsters. They are old enough to make their own decisions.

 

The ones I have absolutely no time for and would happily let them die rather than waste time on, are those who take drugs, then attack the people who are trying to help them.

 

We should do what Portugal did years ago and de criminalise drugs. They have a much lower drug problem than us, plus there is room in their jails to put paedofiles and murderers.

 

Our pollies cannot risk upsetting a few do gooders and right wing apologists and have a good look at the problem. If we legalised drugs there would not be the crime of taking drugs, but also there would not be the big criminal profits and the crimes of druggies stealing to pay for drugs.

 

It works in Portugal, why not here? Only because it is US policy, which our stupid politicians follow blindly.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"attendees put a sample of their drugs onto a sheet where a chemist scraped off a small amount for testing."

 

Just to get a sample of the COATING !.

 

We should do what Portugal did years ago and de criminalise drugs. They have a much lower drug problem than us, plus there is room in their jails to put paedofiles and murderers".

 

WHY are there pedophiles and murderers in Portuguese jails.

 

If they decriminalize Those crimes also, it would Mean only "White collar" criminals would be in jail.

 

AND political opponents to TOUGH legalization.

 

Throw out the BABY with the Lawbooks !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

Just to get a sample of the COATING !.

Are you suggesting that the testing methodology is flawed?

 

I believe this is the standard method used in 20 countries that do allow drug testing. It is hardly some wild experiment that has never been tried before. Most recently drug testing occurred in Canberra https://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/act/overwhelming-success-calls-for-expanding-pill-testing-after-canberra-trial-20180619-p4zmdn.html

 

People here have offered their "opinion" that it is ridiculous and they are so sure it could not possibly work but they don't seem to have much understanding of the methods and the fact that this is happening in 20 countries so far and more are considering it. I have no problem with people who at least make the effort to look at the evidence and come to a different conclusion.

 

Drug checking - Wikipedia

 

 

[storchy neil]

Are you suggesting that the testing methodology is flawed? yes yes yes I am about time you so called educated persons got stopped spredding shetttttt on the false crap about pill testing is safe neil

 

 

[spacesailor]

Octave

 

Your words !

 

"The testing is not destructive. it only requires a scraping "

 

The first layer on most pills is a coating to keep the ingredients intact.

 

And even if "pure " it can still kill.

 

Trying to swallow a none coated pill is fairly hard without water.

 

My anti-inflammatory pill is non-coated & collapses in my throat. ( reach for the wife's water).

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

OctaveYour words !

 

"The testing is not destructive. it only requires a scraping "

 

The first layer on most pills is a coating to keep the ingredients intact.

 

And even if "pure " it can still kill.

 

Trying to swallow a none coated pill is fairly hard without water.

 

My anti-inflammatory pill is non-coated & collapses in my throat. ( reach for the wife's water).

 

spacesailor

Time-release pills have a coating so that the active ingredient is released over a long period of time.

 

Given that the purpose of recreational pills is to give a fast high, I don't think they'd bother coating them. So in most cases the composition would be the same all the way through, so a scraping would work.

 

 

[octave]

OctaveYour words !

 

"The testing is not destructive. it only requires a scraping "

 

The first layer on most pills is a coating to keep the ingredients intact.

 

And even if "pure " it can still kill.

 

Trying to swallow a none coated pill is fairly hard without water.

 

My anti-inflammatory pill is non-coated & collapses in my throat. ( reach for the wife's water).

 

spacesailor

Space you really are clutching are straws

 

The methodology is well described.

 

Firstly drugs made in a basement are unlikely to be coated. If you are correct then test results would not show anything meaningful at all but you can read reports on what drugs are found. If they are only scraping the very surface then how is it that they are able to attain the results that they are obtaining.

 

By the way, the figures show that around 5% when told the drugs is what is supposed to be and has no impurities still elect not to take them. For some, this may y be the first time they have ever been cancelled.

 

New Zealand has been doing this for a few years now. This is the are the methods they use: (but you probably are not interested in facts) Here is a link to the organisation that tests drugs in NZ including some of the raw data 2016/17 results

 

Our testing methods – Reagents and FT-IR Spectroscopy

 

"KnowYourStuffNZ is made up of dedicated volunteers, and operates independently but with the support of the New Zealand Drug Foundation. The technology and methods we use are helping to develop global best practice in this evolving field. We share our processes and data with overseas testing services such as The Loop in the UK and DanceSafe in the USA. All KnowYourStuffNZ’s volunteers are trained in the use of the technology and interpretation of results.

 

Initial testing is carried out using reagents such as Marquis and Mandelin, as well as Ehrlich’s for detecting LSD. These reagents are now available in New Zealand through The Hemp Store. We recommend the DanceSafe instructions for interpreting reagent tests.

 

More detailed testing at events is carried out using a Bruker ALPHA – a Fourier transform infra-red spectrometer. This uses infra-red light to generate a characteristic absorption spectrum for each sample, allowing the detection of drugs, adulterants, and mixtures.

 

Together, these methods allow us to identify over 95% of substances that people bring us.

 

When people find out the drug they have is not what they presumed, they are often willing to abstain from taking that drug. For our testing in the 2016/17 summer season, half of our clients chose not to take a substance that was not as presumed. "

 

 

[spacesailor]

BUT

 

The girl in Parramatta had PURE drug, Still killed her.

 

The pusher Should be charged with her death.

 

Any death by other means are chargeable offences.

 

Hit & kill a cyclist with your car !. YOU WILL BE CHARGED.

 

But its only a pill, Make it legal, TO KILL with a PILL..

 

It's Illegal to have !.

 

It's Illegal to sell !.

 

It's Illegal to kill !.

 

DON'T change the LAW for DRUG pushers.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

BUTThe girl in Parramatta had PURE drug, Still killed her.

 

The pusher Should be charged with her death.

 

Any death by other means are chargeable offences.

 

Hit & kill a cyclist with your car !. YOU WILL BE CHARGED.

 

But its only a pill, Make it legal, TO KILL with a PILL..

 

It's Illegal to have !.

 

It's Illegal to sell !.

 

It's Illegal to kill !.

 

DON'T change the LAW for DRUG pushers.

 

spacesailor

I agree but this is not changing the law for pushers, is it? No one is talking about not charging the pusher.

 

If the idea is so obviously flawed then you should be able to find hundreds of examples where it has failed or made things worse.

 

In an earlier post, you said this "We should do what Portugal did years ago and de criminalise drugs. They have a much lower drug problem than us" - and I totally agree we should try what has worked for them including pill testing! Pill testing is not new and it has amassed a great deal of data regarding it's performance. You are of course entitled to your own opinion (but not your own facts)

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/what-is-pill-testing-20190103-p50pg5.html

 

"Pill testing is part of the Netherlands national drug policy – it was introduced there in 1992. Government-sanctioned services have been in Austria since 1997, Belgium since 1993 and Switzerland since 2001. Pill testing is also available in Portugal, France and Spain. Not-for-profit organisations have been testing in the US and Canada since 1999 and in the UK since 2013.

 

In New Zealand, pill testing is offered at festivals by the volunteer group KnowYourStuffNZ, which is independent but supported by the New Zealand Drug Foundation.

 

Australia’s first professionally administered pill-testing outfit was in a mobile laboratory at Canberra’s Groovin’ the Moo festival in April. The testers used an infrared spectrometer to identify substances in a sample of each pill."

 

 

[storchy neil]

apparently there are over 600 pieces off sheeeeet going into some them there pills

 

about 200 or so can be picked on a spectrometer and the values known

 

so that leaves 400 bit off crap in some of them pills that are unknown

 

so unless you have a spectrometer in your back pocket the pill testing is flawed

 

some off the sheeeet in those pills that the spectrometer has found the values are a complete mystery

 

octave them judges have to be serious and penelize the user and the sell with a conviction then they wont get a job and wont get out off the country neil

 

 

[octave]

apparently there are over 600 pieces off sheeeeet going into some them there pillsabout 200 or so can be picked on a spectrometer and the values known

 

so that leaves 400 bit off crap in some of them pills that are unknown

 

so unless you have a spectrometer in your back pocket the pill testing is flawed

 

some off the sheeeet in those pills that the spectrometer has found the values are a complete mystery

 

octave them judges have to be serious and penelize the user and the sell with a conviction then they wont get a job and wont get out off the country neil

Neil, luckily they do have a spectrometer in their pocket.

 

The service provided by KnowYourStuffNZ includes:

 

– provision of factual information about drugs and drug use in general, signs of excessive or dependent use to look out for, and information about where to get help for drug related problems.

 

– testing of substances using reagents and infra-red spectroscopy to discern the content of a sample.

 

Our Service

 

 

[Bruce]

Pill testing is obviously a first step towards legalization, so we should support it but it doesn't seem right, especially given that no tax is collected anywhere in the illegal drug business. ( except property seizures I guess )

 

I wonder what would happen if it was announced at some event that several of the drug pushers were selling poisoned drugs and buyers were advised to make the seller take his own stuff and then watch him closely for 3 hours before using it on yourself.

 

 

[octave]

Many countries do have harsh drug laws and consequently large prison populations. I am not aware of any countries where this has worked.

 

It is all too easy from the keyboard to think we know exactly how to fix every problem that society has but in reality the world is more complicated than that.

 

My idea would be this:

 

Legalise most recreational drugs. Register, tax and regulate dealers. Of course, many dealers would not register. Have very strict penalties for unregistered dealers (much harsher than the present).

 

Registered dealers gradually move into the traditional business world with all of its obligations. I could go down to the bottleshop and buy a bottle of my favourite Laphroaig whysky. I know how much active ingredient the bottle contains. If I drink the whole bottle I know I will get sick or die. I can be confident that the whysky is not cut with industrial ethanol. It simply would be business and legal suicide for the company to provide a contaminated product. Product liability should apply as well as recalls etc.

 

We use some of the tax take used to educate and to mitigate the societal costs of drug use.

 

The notion that anyone who takes drugs is on a certain trajectory and will die a junkie with a needle hanging out of a vein is not quite true. The reality is that drug use in some demographics is substantial. Most of these people grow out of it. In my 20s I used to get drunk reasonably often but with age, I have of course become more sensible as almost everyone does. The tragedy of a young person dying from a contaminated drug or a drug of unknown potency is that this young person would more than likely would have moved on from taking drugs if they survived long enough to grow up.

 

Would this work, I don't know, these issues are complex and require intelligent and open-minded study. We need to learn from the small successes other counties have had.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's a lot of brain damage done by petrol sniffing and also likely the damage may be to the genes and will be passed on. Education and showing how silly and dangerous this all is would be helpful. Make out you are a dill if you do this to yourself voluntarily. It's true. You are only stating the truth . You are an idiot to do this stuff and you treat your friends and relatives badly often as a result. If that view was more common the peer group pressure would be positive. Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just picking up on this thread - I can't believe it is a controversy! As I think it was Octave who said,even "adults" make poor life choices - should the health service that works to get adults back on an even keel (psychological as well as phsyiological) be removed from - I would say all but Red on this forum? How often have we had a bit too much to drink and made a stoopid decision of.. having more..

 

FWIW: Herei is an article on the Portugese work: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-i

 

Storchy - I appreciate your druggie foe stole from you and that a druggie bashed an 86 year old. But theft and beating of vulnerable people is not the preserve of druggies. Though I will accept that, in a comatozed state, a meth amphetamine user is likely to do more damage than an alcohol user., all things being equal. But it seems to me that take away the stigma and provide support (as we do to alchies), and we may alleviate the problem somewhat.

 

While the UK has been pill testing for 5 years, it has effectively decriminalised the posession of class C narchotics (marrjuana, hash, etc) probbaly about 10 years ago.. This has apprently led to a massive reduction in crime related to these substances - maybe they got bored and went for class A and B...

 

 

[old man emu]

From the introduction of Random Breath Testing of drivers for alcohol intoxication on 10 December 1985 in order to reduce the percentage of intoxicated drivers until 2005, the RTA estimates that 4367 lives were saved in the ensuing 20 years because of the introduction of RBT. Death toll: 1291 in 1981; 524 in 2001. (I accept that improvements in roads and vehicles also had a big effect in that time span.)

 

So now the road user has less chance of being involved in a collision with a drunk driver. Societal mores have also changed (or maybe the hardened drinkers of long ago have since kicked off this mortal coil). There is no denying that over the same period, many collisions involved drugged drivers, and now Random Drug Testing of drivers is carried on. Now we have reached the point that the drunk driver monster has been chained and its effects curtailed. So what do those who want to legalise MDMA want? To release another monster onto our roads.

 

It cannot be denied that pill testing will reduce medical emergencies to the consumer by eliminating the impurities found in street supplies. However, pill testing will not remove the physiological effect of the chemical. How Taking Ecstasy (MDMA) Can Cause Dependence and Long-Term Effects

 

Consuming "recreational" drugs in festival venues, at home or in monitored locations won't impact on road trauma - no vehicles means no collisions. But users will not confine their use to these "safe" places. We have seen that users of alcohol will drink then drive. Users of marijuana and cocaine will inhale and drive. And we know that users of MDMA ingest and drive.

 

I don't particularly care if Joe Blow wants to surrender body and mind to drug induced euphoria. I sure as Hell do care if stoned Joe Blow injures or kills someone with a vehicle on a public street. Banning the distribution of all drugs might restrict the Rights of the Few, but it is the Responsibility of the Many.

 

 

[Marty_d]

From the introduction of Random Breath Testing of drivers for alcohol intoxication on 10 December 1985 in order to reduce the percentage of intoxicated drivers until 2005, the RTA estimates that 4367 lives were saved in the ensuing 20 years because of the introduction of RBT. Death toll: 1291 in 1981; 524 in 2001. (I accept that improvements in roads and vehicles also had a big effect in that time span.)

So now the road user has less chance of being involved in a collision with a drunk driver. Societal mores have also changed (or maybe the hardened drinkers of long ago have since kicked off this mortal coil). There is no denying that over the same period, many collisions involved drugged drivers, and now Random Drug Testing of drivers is carried on. Now we have reached the point that the drunk driver monster has been chained and its effects curtailed. So what do those who want to legalise MDMA want? To release another monster onto our roads.

 

It cannot be denied that pill testing will reduce medical emergencies to the consumer by eliminating the impurities found in street supplies. However, pill testing will not remove the physiological effect of the chemical. How Taking Ecstasy (MDMA) Can Cause Dependence and Long-Term Effects

 

Consuming "recreational" drugs in festival venues, at home or in monitored locations won't impact on road trauma - no vehicles means no collisions. But users will not confine their use to these "safe" places. We have seen that users of alcohol will drink then drive. Users of marijuana and cocaine will inhale and drive. And we know that users of MDMA ingest and drive.

 

I don't particularly care if Joe Blow wants to surrender body and mind to drug induced euphoria. I sure as Hell do care if stoned Joe Blow injures or kills someone with a vehicle on a public street. Banning the distribution of all drugs might restrict the Rights of the Few, but it is the Responsibility of the Many.

Hold on there OME... you've just used alcohol as your example and said that RBT has reduced deaths on the road.

 

But your conclusion is that we need to ban recreational drugs?

 

Surely if your parallel were to hold true, your position should be that recreational drugs should be legalized and controlled, and RBT's include drug testing?

 

Otherwise, shouldn't we bite the bullet and say that we should make alcohol illegal?

 

Because your last paragraph could read:

 

"I don't particularly care if Joe Blow wants to surrender body and mind to drug alcohol induced euphoria. I sure as Hell do care if stoned pissed Joe Blow injures or kills someone with a vehicle on a public street. Banning the distribution of all drugs alcohol might restrict the Rights of the Few, but it is the Responsibility of the Many."

 

Because this is my point. There is no substantive difference between alcohol and recreational drugs. Both, if made poorly, will kill you or drive you crazy. Both will affect your judgement and motor control. Both have the very real possibility of addiction and poor life choices.

 

So why don't we treat recreational drugs like alcohol - legalize, have standards of manufacture, same restrictions on operating machinery as alcohol, same warnings, same rehabilitation facilities?

 

Apparently 8 million Australians have used recreational drugs (1/3 of the population) and 2.9 million currently use them. This is not some fringe group, it's mainstream. It's not a "law & order" issue, it's a medical and safety one.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you market something it has to meet standards to protect the consumer. and you are in the poo if your stuff is off. That's the way it should be or you are committing fraud. Nev