WhatsUp, Australia or wotsup Australia

[Marty_d]

Woolies and Coles are in a race to the bottom. Hardly any Australian product on their shelves. They have crushed almost all the competitors. How long since you had a local grocery store? Bunnings and Mitre 10 have driven most independent hardware stores to the wall.

 

These duopolies are making money but we consumers no longer have much choice of products. Its difficult to find a store that sells a quality product, whether food or hardware or home goods.

 

So these duopolies are not good for me as a consumer.

There used to be a family-owned hardware store down the road from me in Margate. Bloody handy if you just needed something quickly.

 

It's gone now because the building it was in was bought up by a developer with plans to build a shopping centre. Now if I need something I need to go twice as far, to Bunnings in Kingston.

 

Capitalism is absolutely fine as long as it's regulated properly. You can't trust rampant self-interest to provide for all of society. And as we saw with the financial royal commission, there is absolutely no way it's properly regulated at the moment.

 

 

[old man emu]

I needed some canned fruit juice for a recipe. I went to my local Wollies and could find only one brand of the juice I wanted. Happily what I bought was Australian product, but God only knows who owns the manufacturer.

 

 

[spacesailor]

We in Tooni have lost these shops, in the last few years.

 

Auto spares.

 

Bearing industries.

 

Hardware shop.

 

Coles.

 

StGeorge bank.

 

shoe shop.

 

Dimmies. ( nearest, Lithgow)

 

Caravan/trailer spares.

 

There's more but these are off the top of my head.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[storchy neil]

yah need a new gps to find em space them blokes up the road shifted em overnight neil

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

The problem with the question the OP poses is that it is very multi-dimensional. I don't have time at the minute to write a diatribe, but the dimensions would have to be:

 

- politically

 

-culturally

 

- economically

 

- socially

 

- environmentally

 

- etc etc etc(OK a cop out)

 

But before we can answer what's up with Australia (or anywhere), don't we have to know what "right" (as in good, not political leaning) looks like? Otherwise, how do we know what has to be fixed? And therein lies the problem, because for every forumite on this forum, right/good will look different. Yes - we are all probably more or less in the same direction, but I may put environment ahead of flying - therefore I would prioritise one over the other. But even within flying, I may want a more cautious regulatory regime than others... how far do we go to fix (do I hear the word compromise come up?)

 

One thing I can say - at least amongst many of the forumites here, is that we don't trust them, they lie, they cheat, they pursue their own agendas, etc but we, as evidenced in this thread, are happy to leave it to them - i.e. the pollies - as this where a lot of the thread centred. And I would say that the culture of democracy begins and ends at the ballot box is something that needs to be fixed - in Aus and most western democracies - if people want change -t hey have to get involved (preferably unarmed). Don't like the way CASA is doing something, join one of the TLA organisations and make your voice heard through them and collectively push for change.. Don't like the way big business is polluting the environment - joing a pressure group to collectively bring pressure for change.. etc. There are enough organisations out there. Of course, there are issues with this - lots of these organisations succumb to petty infighting and agenda pushing themselves. - so one has to be careful and select the right one and be prepared to move if your influence can't keep it on the straight and narrow - according to your definition of straight and narrow.

 

Otherwise, we are just leaving it to the next guy until election time, and if everyone does it, well you get what you ask for..

 

BTW: one way to sort out politics is to require all communications with lobbyists and pressure groups with pollies a matter of public record...

 

 

[spacesailor]

"And I would say that the culture of democracy begins and ends at the ballot box is something that needs to be fixed - in Aus and most western democracies - if people want change -they have to get involved (preferably unarmed)."

 

No-Way !.

 

Lets be like England and have a Blooody good revolution. (out with the Republic & and return to the Monarchy).

 

HANG the bad ones.

 

I did something, I joined this group of Formalities.. (and gave away my flying dream, Boo Hoo).

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Spacey - I can't say I am an expert on Cromwell or his Motley Crew (I would like to consult those who are, but, alas, during the week, I am 150 miles from my kids.. which is why I am leaving my current London job to take up.. another London job.. albeit with the promise of working from home 3 days a week).. However, my lecturer in the UK described it as a bit of a rough up among the gentrified - it hardly involved anyone else - much the same as many other uprisings (war of the roses, etc). It was there to work to the advantage of a privileged few - not the greater plebs of the world.

 

OK - I should be studying, but my mate Wolfie abandoned me, but thankfully Mr Wynns of Coonawarra decided to pay me a visit... so....

 

On the politics side.. Well, aas a young-un, I was a member of one of the two, then, prominent political parties in Aus. Before I could fart properly, I was the president of my branch, a member of a committee that decided who would stand for MP in our electorate and a delegate to both state and national young-<xxxxxxx> conferences. The further up the greasy pole I climbed, the greasier it got. I was the black sheep in our family - as others (cousins) were on the other side. It doesn't matter which side we were one.. as we used to compare notes to some extent - all of us realising what a poop-show it was. Both sides wrangling behind the scenes made Donald trump look reserved and rational. I ended up quitting before my cousins (some second and third), but they jumpoed ship (is is that shi???) not too long after. All of us were totally disillusioned with the game - most of us still yet to finish high school (or, for those of a younger generation, secondary college). But what I recall, especially when Sid Spindler was about, was the Democracts were a voice of reason... Unf, the leader who formed a coalition with Johnny also succumbed to the power game and, well, last I sawm the democrats were struggliung to draw a parliamentary salary. Funny thing - I look at Aussie politics and it repeats in Britain about 5 - 10 years later (Lib dems here are stuffed exactly for the same reason).

 

Politically, one has to inject integrity back into the system. But what does that really mean? I am guessing most of us are from about mid 40s (Marty) up.. Since 60 is the new 40, I am almost the same age as my guess of what Marty is. There are some fundamental differneces in our ideology and the pragmatics of those ideologies, but, I liketo think we have open, honest debate.. some based on fact and some based on bias - anbd no one here is 100% based on one or the other. But look at politics. It is really toxic. There are vested interests and whether or not by design, an apathetic and disenfranchised population (maybe, Spacey, your idea of armed conflict is not so bad after all). What is integrity? Someone mentioned, MPs are elected by a few to represent them - but often they are seen hiding behind the leaders. I don't necessarily subscribe to that, as I knew MPs in Aus (at both state and federal levels and on both sides) who worked tirelessly for their electorate and did an remarkable job of understanding their electorate's wishes and worked behind the scenes to acheive them (I do agree, towing the party line publicly is a given).

 

But I look at things like the gay marriage vote and over here, Brexit. There are MPs who are clearly voting against their electorates wishes - on both sides! For example, David Davis is an East Yorkshire MP and outspoken Brexiteer that he is pushing Brexit almost as much as Nigel Farage. Yet, as I recall, his constituency was a black sheep of the north. voting strongly to remain (I could be wrong, ISTR reading it somewhere), whereas there are many Labour (UK spelling) MPs who are actively pushing remain despite over 70% of their electrorate voting to go.. They are not representing the interests or wishes of their electorate at all.. The same was with the gay marriage vote in the UK and Australia. Over 'ere, it was a free vote - MPs voted on what they wanted. I can't recall the exact numbers. but let's say it was no where as well endorsed as the defeat Theresa May suffered recently. Yet polling indicated about 75% of the population was for it; about 20% couldn't care less and 5% were dead against it. As I recall, it was something like 60% for and 40% againnst.

 

What is my point? Politics in a democracy doesn't represent what people want.. And the whole idea of democracy is to represent the people one has voted for! So how do we fix it? Bluddy difficult - as many other threads have idenfified the largely uneducated (as in not willing to look at other views than their favourite news or social media site presents) having an equal say to those who could be bothered educating themselves on an issue.

 

So, my ideas to fix politics (Mr Wynns assisting, of course):

 

- As I mentioned, any peer group or lobbyist (or really, non departmental) communication to ministers regardless of seniority/cabinet statius) to be publised for a min of, say one month before a decision is taken - and the publock have freee opportunity to submit their ideas.

 

- Voting (in Aus) not compulsory, but those who don't have to declare at each election they don't care of the outcome and they wholly submit to whatever happens without recourse. I was a polling officer (obviosuly not at the same time as being a member of a political party), and in the booth I was in, at least 20% of papers weren't counted because they were obviosuly spoiled (we would try, with scrutineers wathcing over us, validate as many votes as we could).

 

- End party donations - period. Each political party can take government loans for their electio campaign, and they are reimbursed based on the proportion of votes they attract. This needs a bit of work, but it will probably convince all parties to have poliicies that work for the population. Political donations are nothing other than bribes.. Period.

 

- I can't recall if Australia has a bill of rights. Align it tot he ECHR (I hear the decries already) and have real penalties applied that hurt those that make decisions in government when a decision goes against them.. In other words - introduce accountabiluty to government departments. Look up Anns v Merton - worst decision ever, although I undersand the rationale for it.

 

OK.. I am sort of done.. for tonight..

 

Tomorrow - if I get a chance, I will carry on like a 2 bob watch about culture...

 

(BTW - carp joke,., first I joke I was told when I arrived in these fair shores...

 

What's the difference between a tub of yogurt and an Australian?

 

The tub of yogurt's got a culture!

 

Baboom

 

JA

 

 

[spacesailor]

"- I can't recall if Australia has a bill of rights. Align it tot he ECHR (I hear the decries already) "

 

Had to look up "echr". And the caption doesn't look good.

 

I always believed the Magna Carta was our Bill of rights, Penned when Cromwell was defeated, ( in a field as No one trusted each other(Great example of Politics))

 

But Our pollies have change it somehow.

 

Magna carta "noun. the “great charter” of English liberties, forced from King John by the English barons and sealed at Runnymede, June 15, 1215. any fundamental constitution or law guaranteeing rights and liberties.

 

It was, As Under the Queen & as British subjects we should Still have this safety net. (If we take dual citizenship with England, can we get that Charter back again,Just a thought).

 

[ECHR Hates Christian Majority More than Islamists, by Anatoly Karlin] ...

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

"ECHR hates..." What absolute rubbish.. You may want to do some research on your authors before quoting them: Anatoly Karlin - RationalWiki That was the first link in google search of many and while any wiki is not in the least bit authorative, it is consistent with many others.

 

BTW - the Magna Carta was all but repealed long before the ECHR was a thought of by.. let me see.. .Winston Churchill amongst others..

 

Keep up wit the times, Spaecy

 

 

[nomadpete]

Last I heard, Australia has NO bill of rights.

 

 

[Bruce]

Here's what I would like to see... an ombudsman for keeping government tenders honest.

 

It would work by investigating claims from cheaper but unsuccessful tenderers and , if their claims passed scrutiny, sacking the corrupt officials involved.

 

Of course it will be falsely claimed that this already happens.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Jerry, I agree wholeheartedly that political donations should be ended. For all parties and from everyone. I don't care who you are, there's far more deserving places to park your charity dollar than give it to a political party to spend it on expensive (and annoying) advertising.

 

I disagree somewhat on voluntary voting. Compulsory voting ensures that everyone, no matter how apathetic, is forced to at least get off their ar*se once every 3 years and make a choice. What I would like to see is better education. You're right, I'm in my 40's, and despite a mild interest in politics I really don't know much about the process. It should be a subject all through at least late primary school to year 12, so that the public is at least knowledgeable about the system and therefore better able to make an informed choice.

 

 

[old man emu]

Marty, isn't it a Freedom our political system allows for anyone to dispose of their money as they see fit? If Citizen A has wants to go further in support of a political party by donating money to its coffers, then surely that's OK.

 

I agree that it's wrong to give money to a political party with the expectation of obtaining personal benefit. That's tantamount to offering a bribe to a public official. I suppose it's not the grassroots support who might throw in a couple of hundred dollars who is doing the wrong thing. It's the person who shovels in hundreds of thousands whose actions are suspicious. This is because there are very few people who can part with those huge amounts for no other reason than to promote the platforms of a political party.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Jerry

 

I didn't look at or read Any of those headlines, merely wished to find the meaning of that acronym,

 

That particular headline stood out like a sore thumb, & seems to have hit a sore point.

 

But I will move on with .

 

Why does Australia need an Echr. from a Foreign country, & why not keep using the one we follow mostly, US of A ?.

 

Trump will not be amused with Australia Leaning towards Europe. perhaps we can have the American "Bill of rights",

 

With the 1st amendment we can have our firearms back !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

Marty, isn't it a Freedom our political system allows for anyone to dispose of their money as they see fit? If Citizen A has wants to go further in support of a political party by donating money to its coffers, then surely that's OK.

I agree that it's wrong to give money to a political party with the expectation of obtaining personal benefit. That's tantamount to offering a bribe to a public official. I suppose it's not the grassroots support who might throw in a couple of hundred dollars who is doing the wrong thing. It's the person who shovels in hundreds of thousands whose actions are suspicious. This is because there are very few people who can part with those huge amounts for no other reason than to promote the platforms of a political party.

OME, you aren't actually free to dispose of your money as you see fit now. You can't give money to a police officer or a public servant - or rather, they can't take it in most circumstances. Why should political parties be any different? While we're at it, I'd love to see the Australian Public Service Code of Conduct applied to politicians.

 

Everyone has a simple, fair way to support the politician / party of their choice now - it's called a vote.

 

I'd argue that allowing even individuals to donate money to political parties will be rorted. Say a company wants access or influence, all they will do is make a payment of $1000 from each and every worker that works for them.

 

The basic principle of democracy SHOULD be, that the vote of every eligible person is weighted equally. This includes those people who can't afford, or don't want to, financially donate to the politicians. Whenever anyone pays to political parties then the weighting is no longer equal. "He who pays the piper calls the tune"... and it's pretty obvious that our politicians are dancing to the tunes chosen by their rich donors.

 

 

[old man emu]

Marty,

 

Yes, there are some restrictions on to whom you can give money. Public Service functionaries cannot keep gifts without the approval of a superior authority (not God, but God knows)

 

What is the difference between becoming a member of a political party and fund raising for it, and becoming a member of a flying club and raising money for it? Either way, one puts personal effort into improving the financial status of the favoured organisation.

 

Your example of a company hiding their great contribution behind the names of employees, whose money it never really was is a good example of undermining the system, and I agree. Even if there was a cap placed on the total amount an individual can contribute each financial year, it would not take long before the weasels would squeeze past it.

 

Have you thought how much of your membership fee to the RAAus is used to further lobbying on your behalf? Good or bad, money oils the wheels that make the World go round.

 

 

[Marty_d]

What is the difference between becoming a member of a political party and fund raising for it, and becoming a member of a flying club and raising money for it? Either way, one puts personal effort into improving the financial status of the favoured organisation.

The difference is that political parties can end up governing the country for ALL Australians. Yes, if I have an interest like flying, I can throw (far too much) money at it in whatever way I choose. It affects only those members with interests similar to mine.

 

Have you thought how much of your membership fee to the RAAus is used to further lobbying on your behalf? Good or bad, money oils the wheels that make the World go round.

Again, there's a difference. If an organisation lobbies politicians but doesn't actually pay them anything (or buy them dinners, or trips, or all the other bribes) - then they have just as much true influence as any member of the public who goes to see their local MP.

 

 

[Bruce]

Bex ( I hope he gets better and returns ) once said that the average educated Chinese thinks Australia is a corrupt country on the basis of political " donations" .

 

Notice how both sides of politics accuse the other of being beholden to their donors?

 

And Marty, an organization with lots of members can have clout because it can sway lots of votes. This is how some groups, like churches or shooters, exert influence far beyond their numbers

 

 

[facthunter]

In Politics you BUY favours especially if it's a large amount, and get a tax deduction at the same time. You need to know who's funding the government and who's interests they are serving. so you can work out who's screwing you... It mightn't do much else but it's a start. and if enough do it we might get a better deal. from them.

 

 

[Marty_d]

And Marty, an organization with lots of members can have clout because it can sway lots of votes. This is how some groups, like churches or shooters, exert influence far beyond their numbers

True in some cases but not others. Take RAAus for example. What, 10,000 people scattered around the nation? And judging by the conversations on here, some are full-on lefties, some are green, quite a few centre-left or centre-right, some hardcore conservatives and some bat-sh*t crazy Palmer/Hanson/Katter supporters. Just like the rest of the population.

 

 

[storchy neil]

yes marty I gave a caution under witch category do stand neil

 

 

[nomadpete]

You can be any category you want.

 

 

[Marty_d]

yes marty I gave a caution under witch category do stand neil

Cool, thanks Neil!

 

I don't know which way you voted Neil, but reasonably sure it wasn't Greens or Labor.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"And judging by the conversations on here, some are full-on lefties, some are green, quite a few centre-left or centre-right, some hardcore conservatives and some bat-sh*t crazy Palmer/Hanson/Katter supporters. "

 

They say "Poms are Pink" or white.Only Green when Sick.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

The Mob that base their actions on facts and science will get my vote. Confusing it is a deliberate tactic. Hitler burned all the books and then kept repeating lies. It worked. The Germans by and large got behind him.. Nev