Hospital wait times

[old man emu]

Playing a musical instrument involves a lot of motor skills. It is a practical skill. I agree that passing musical theory exams involves a lot of intellectual input, but how good are these kids at decomposing the construction of a musical piece? Apart from the creation of some new instruments, what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?

 

 

[octave]

but how good are these kids at decomposing the construction of a musical piece?

Theory and analysis is part of the exam system as in this piece you have just played, what key is it in, what is its structure, what period was it composed in and what characteristics relate to the period in which it was composed, and lots more. Some of my students also learn composition (but not from me) One of my Asian students plays jazz and enjoys improvising which is really composing in real time.

 

Apart from the creation of some new instruments, what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?

I am not sure I understand the question.

 

Stereotypes are simply not useful. If a new student walks through my door their ethnicity tells me nothing useful. Even if there are differences you don't know where on the scale a particular person is.

 

If you measure someone's performance in a particular area such as intelligence, maths ability piloting ability creativeness etc you would get a bell curve. Let's say that red people are better at mathematics than blue people. These bell curves overlap unless the difference is enormous. This tells me that the smartest mathematician in the world is slightly more likely to be a red person than a blue person. It also tells me that if I met a red or blue person they are much more likely to fall within the overlap.

 

[ATTACH]49948._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

I reject stereotypes. The fact that I am a white ageing Australian male may tell others a little about what I "might" be like but I do not fit the stereotype that other countries may have about the average Australian. The stereotype does not really perform a useful function.

 

[pmccarthy]

This actually says that of the top 50 mathematicians in the world (or physicists or whatever), a large majority are going to be red people. It is a big, big effect at the end of the tail.

 

 

[octave]

This actually says that of the top 50 mathematicians in the world (or physicists or whatever), a large majority are going to be red people. It is a big, big effect at the end of the tail.

It does not provide a good prediction of what a random red or blue will be. If we overlay the average Australian IQ over the average Hong Kong IQ you would get something like the bell curves I posted. Whatever this means at the tail choosing a candidate from Hong Kong instead of one from Australia does not make the odds much greater of getting the best candidate or whatever.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Didn't Hitler make the same assumption in 1938 !.

 

It takes All types to make a Good "pudding". LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

Neighbours son wrote an app the other morning by himself. In Java.

 

He's 7.

 

 

[old man emu]

When I said, "what radical revision of the physics of sound creation have changed in the past few centuries?" I was saying that the physics of harmonics has always been the same. I have no doubt that your students are very competent in producing pleasing harmonics from their instruments, but the basics of sound production using tools is basically no different today than it was when Gronk hit two sticks together in a rhythmic pattern.

 

Your students are simply becoming skilled in a mechanical task. They aren't taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas.

 

 

[octave]

Your students are simply becoming skilled in a mechanical task. They aren't taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas.

Can you give an example a musician who is "taking the physics of harmonics into untried areas"

 

. Many of my students are improvising which involves understanding the chord structure and then composing a melody on the fly. This melody has to do more than just not sound wrong it has to lead somewhere, it has to be original. When learning a written piece of music the student may be able to play the correct rhythm and correct notes it then has to be interpreted. The piece needs to be phrased. In my area (woodwind) notes are not automatically in tune but you have to listen an adjust each note as you go (intonation). I could on (and on). In the classical music field, there are probably hundreds of different recordings of let's say the Beethoven symphonies. If we were talking about purely about a mechanical skill there would be no point in anyone else recording, we would just have the definitive one version. I would have thought that you would credit your favourite musicians with more than just being able to sing the correct pitch and place their fingers in the correct place on the fretboard. In terms of a music degree, you have to have the mechanical skills before you are admitted, during the course, you learn how to actually be musical. There is a high failure rate.

 

Anyway, my point was more general and related to

 

These Asian and Oriental kids come out of universities with few practical skills other than those which might be associated with their field of study. Even then they most often only hold theoretical knowledge.

How do you know this is true?

 

I am saying that this is not my experience and is merely a stereotype not born out by my students or indeed fellow teachers many of whom are Asian. I did use to work with a Russian music teacher who used to say that Australian students are lazy and anti-intellectual but this is just another dumb stereotype. Even if there were some truth to this stereotype so what? It is meaningless. People tend to believe stereotypes about others but reject those about themselves.

 

There are many stereotypes around, what are the characteristics of a policeman, a cardinal an older person a scoutmaster?

 

I agree with this guy

 

 

[nomadpete]

OME's generalisation about Asian kids being more likely to posess grest theoretical skills but lack practical application skills does (to me) make a point.

 

My observation is that highly academic folk tend to lack practical applied logic (generally, of course). For instance, I know a couple of uni grads , engineers and doctors, who can't be trusted to start a lawn mower or assemble an IKEA kit without making silly mistakes.

 

But the generalisation is not a ethnic one, so much. Its a result of spending most of their waking time studying instead of learning by trial and error. The school of hard knocks tends to teach practical stuff. The school of universities tend to teach theory.

 

That's my generalisation.

 

 

[octave]

OME's generalisation about Asian kids being more likely to posess grest theoretical skills but lack practical application skills does (to me) make a point.

My observation is that highly academic folk tend to lack practical applied logic (generally, of course). For instance, I know a couple of uni grads and doctors, who can't be trusted to start a lawn mower or assemble an IKEA kit without making silly mistakes.

 

But the generalisation is not a ethnic one, so much. Its a result of spending most of their waking time studying instead of learning by trial and error. The school of hard knocks tends to teach practical stuff. The school of universities tend to teach theory.

 

That's my generalisation.

 

 

Is it important for a doctor to be able to start a lawnmower and assemble Ikea furniture? I imagine the average doctor would say "why the hell would I want to mow my own lawn when I can pay someone to do it" seems fair to me.

 

The variations within a group are greater than the variations between groups. I have had many Asian students who are not particularly academically gifted. I recall an Asian student complaining to me that it was annoying that people assumed they were academically gifted.when they were actually pretty ordinary.

 

We tend to look at other groups and assign characteristics whilst there may be tendencies perhaps due to cultural differences these differences are usually small and not that significant.

 

Most people fall into many contradictory groups.

 

How can I be categorized?

 

I am a musician - what stereotype can be applied.

 

I spent 12 years as a musician in the military - this comes with a stereotype

 

I owner built a house, am I a builder type?

 

Home educated my son - what type of person does that make me?

 

Born in England - what does this say about me?

 

I was an immigrant - what type of person does this make me?

 

I consider myself Australian - does this mean I am obsessed with sport?

 

Grew up in the suburbs.

 

Lived on a large rural property

 

Live I in an apartment

 

Am I a South Australian a New South Welshman a Victorian.

 

I am a recreational pilot.

 

I am all of these things. All of these groups have different stereotypes.

 

I am not saying there are not tendencies, for example, immigrants may be more economically and academically ambitious. I work a couple of days a week at a studio in Footscray which has a large ethnic population. The Asian population in this area by and large fall lower down the socioeconomic scale, they are mostly not accountants and doctors. The usual stereotype tells me nothing about what these people are like.

 

The fact that someone who has just spent many years doing a medical degree and may not have learned skills outside of this area applies across the board regardless of ethnicity. By the way, a lot of a medical degree is done in hospitals with real patients and is practical.

 

If t Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded perhaps this is an advantage if I an employer is looking to employ accountants. They perhaps are not required to deal with customers but must be fantastic at the numbers. Perhaps they could eliminate all the resumes that do not have an Asian name on them.

 

Some questions I would love an answer to are:

 

If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

 

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?

 

 

[nomadpete]

Are you suggesting that

 

"Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded" ?

 

What sort of generalisation is that?

 

 

[octave]

Are you suggesting that"Asians tend to be nerdy but not well rounded" ?

 

What sort of generalisation is that?

lol no, I am suggesting that is a commonly held stereotype, but not held by me. I have been teaching since 1990 and although I have not kept a list of how many students I have taught hundreds of students and I can honestly say that least useful predictor of success, failure or mediocrity is ethnicity or culture, if it is there it is small and overshadowed by other things. I have found at least in my field that parental involvement does actually play a part.

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you study a lot, you get luckier at exam time.. Tertiary level education relies more on self motivation, and it assumes you are more capable of believing and working with that. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Octave, is it possible that your generalisation (that ability is not race specific) is skewed by the fact that your experience with those hundreds of students is only drawn from the motivated and passionate section of the populace?

 

 

[nomadpete]

" If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

 

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?"

 

With regard to the first,

 

Why would one wish to use this information? To what end? These are esoteric questions. I don't understand how or why one would use stereotype information to relate to an individual, since generalisations, by their nature are not specific to individuals.

 

With regard to the second,

 

I have no interest in what stereotypes that may be applied to the 'average' Aussie males, or females, apart from having a laugh at the way that stereotypes don't seem to fit most of the people I know.

 

I'm sorry to hear your son has been having problems. We visited Christchurch before and after vthe quake.(if that's what you are referring to). NZ is a nice place. I deeply admire the work you do. Unfortunately I haven't a musical bone in my body (I'm a typical Aussie white middle aged, poorly educated male). Thank you for the debate.

 

Personally, I wait until an individual says or does something before I start making judgements. After that it's open slather.

 

 

[octave]

" If we accept that different groups have particular characteristics, how do we use this information?

What stereotypes can we apply to Australian men?"

 

With regard to the first,

 

Why would one wish to use this information? To what end? These are esoteric questions. I don't understand how or why one would use stereotype information to relate to an individual, since generalisations, by their nature are not specific to individuals.

 

With regard to the second,

 

I have no interest in what stereotypes that may be applied to the 'average' Aussie males, or females, apart from having a laugh at the way that stereotypes don't seem to fit most of the people I know.

 

I'm sorry to hear your son has been having problems. We visited Christchurch before and after vthe quake.(if that's what you are referring to). NZ is a nice place. I deeply admire the work you do. Unfortunately I haven't a musical bone in my body (I'm a typical Aussie white middle aged, poorly educated male). Thank you for the debate.

 

Personally, I wait until an individual says or does something before I start making judgements. After that it's open slather.

Sorry been bit of a tough day in my usually easy life.

 

If there is no point in using a stereotype then perhaps there is no point in holding a stereotype. I guess this is my point. I am in no way suggesting you are. Nah my son left a day before, but when I enquired about the incident he said "bloody Aussies"

 

 

[Bruce]

Since I accept that different groups have particular characteristics, I hereby bet that I will donate to Octave's choice of charity $50 every time a person of Chinese appearance ( Includes Japanese, Koreans etc ) wins the 100 metres gold medal at the Olympics.

 

And I'm not a racist because my bike is too slow, I'm only a bit misogynistic and only a bit alcoholic.

 

 

[nomadpete]

So, Bruce, you fit one and a half points in the stereotype test.

 

I get about the same, bike is no racer, no idea what a misogynist is (I'll ask my wife), maybe i'm a little higher on the alcohol though.

 

I'll still talk to you though.

 

 

[octave]

Since I accept that different groups have particular characteristics, I hereby bet that I will donate to Octave's choice of charity $50 every time a person of Chinese appearance ( Includes Japanese, Koreans etc ) wins the 100 metres gold medal at the Olympics.And I'm not a racist because my bike is too slow, I'm only a bit misogynistic and only a bit alcoholic.

What characteristics do ageing Aussie men have?

 

Whilst at the leading edge of performance it may be true that there may be no Asian Olympic medalists in running (and you know I am going to look it up) this does not mean that I would win a running race with 20 random Asians...... does it? it is said (but of course I need to check the facts) that men are better at maths than women. I haven't done formal maths since 1979 but my wife taught maths for several years. Draw your own conclusions as to which one of us an INTELLIGENT person would ask for help with a maths problem

 

 

[nomadpete]

Octave,

 

My point is that we all do a fair bit of sweeping judgements. Its a part of how we deal with the complexity of our social structure, and the high population pressure. As you pointed out, generalisations can easily lead us astray. But our minds cannot cope with the vast breadth of detail that we are bombarded with. I hope we regularly challenge our generalisations.

 

Just like someone saying "Bloody Aussies!"

 

Which is a generalisation that suggests that the typical Aussie male can be expected to commit atrocities.

 

 

[octave]

Just like someone saying "Bloody Aussies!"Which is a generalisation that suggests that the typical Aussie male can be expected to commit atrocities.

To be clear that statement from my son was ironic.

 

 

[octave]

No one has so far been prepared to give me a profile of the average Aussie male.

 

 

[nomadpete]

It wasn't meant to hurt, just meant as an example of everyday generalisations.

 

And as for identifying a profile of the Stereotypical Aussie, you'd probably find a different answer from each person you ask. Because a generalisation is an individual's sweeping judgement. It is a summary based on the individuals personal experience filtered through the paradigm of that individuals other preconceived notions. So there is a lot of Lattitude for each stereotype to fit maybe one example but not the majority of the demographic being stereotyped.

 

 

[Bruce]

Once we were needing an ambulance at 3am to transport a mentally disturbed ( but oth erwise docile ) girl to hospital. I offered to drive her there, but the local GP who was there said I wouldn't get in.

 

Initially, the GP was told that because there was only an all-female crew on that shift, they couldn't take a mental patient. This was their rules.

 

I present this as evidence that gender equality is just not true. Those female crews could not offer the same service at all.

 

Now you can think of gender-neutral tests, like can the ambulance crew subdue a violent big man.. I can imagine some females who could, and some males who could not. So why not do tests like this to determine who gets the job?

 

 

[octave]

Since I accept that different groups have particular characteristics, I hereby bet that I will donate to Octave's choice of charity $50 every time a person of Chinese appearance ( Includes Japanese, Koreans etc ) wins the 100 metres gold medal at the Olympics.And I'm not a racist because my bike is too slow, I'm only a bit misogynistic and only a bit alcoholic.

I note that the Chinese excel at table tennis does this mean that they are genetically endowed in some way? A more rational explanation may be that the Chinese government funds certain sports due to some notion of national identity? Australia has traditionally done well in swimming. Is this because of some kind of genetic disposition, probably not. More likely to do with our climate combined with our beach loving culture as weoll as some past success. Does this mean that Asians are unsuited to swimming ..... unlikely?