49 Years and a day

[old man emu]

You only have to take one small step to work out the significance.

 

 

[red750]

50th anniversary of a giant leap.

 

 

[Marty_d]

And that's how we end up with the least universally disliked individuals.

But it still fails to get good trustworthy bums on the seats.

You've got to get the trustworthy bums into politics first, and that's the biggest problem. The constant news cycle, internal factions, endless compromises and the nature of politics itself requires thick-skinned calculating operators who know how to game the system and are good with a microphone. There's no actual requirement for trust or indeed morals of any sort, as evidenced by certain orange-haired politicians in a couple of countries.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

50th anniversary of a giant leap.

But where have we gone since that Giant Leap? Backwards.

 

 

[Marty_d]

No, we're getting back there again.

 

A Falcon Heavy delivered a load to orbit in the last day or so and then it, and its two booster rockets, landed upright back on the pads. They couldn't do that at any time in the past. Even with the the Shuttle the big fuel tank and the boosters were discarded.

 

Also Israel almost landed an unmanned craft on the moon. Didn't quite make it, crashed and spread itself over the landing site - but pretty close, and it was Israel for chrissakes!

 

Then the Stratolaunch Roc had its first flight so hopefully it won't be long before that's firing off satellite insertion rockets.

 

Things are happening!!

 

 

[old man emu]

Come on, Marty. When as the last time you heard your local candidates getting out and addressing the people they want to represent? All local candidates seem to do is stand behind a Party heavy-weight and do this:

 

 

[Marty_d]

Come on, Marty. When as the last time you heard your local candidates getting out and addressing the people they want to represent?

I agree. Around election time, usually.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I didn't say ALL are not worth voting for. It just makes it hard(er) to find them. Not voting is a futile action and disrespectful of the efforts many good people have made to get that "right" for you in the recent past. Most of the world doesn't have that right. You must have got it too easily or you would respect it more. It's your only chance to "fix" the system without blood in the streets and a less predictable acceptable outcome.. Nev

I am not sure I entirely agree.

 

Firstly, you can vote for the promises to fix things, but politics, especially around election time, is littered with broken promises (except the back-room dealing type of promises). So, even in a reasonably progressive democracy, nothing is guaranteed. Let's look at Theresa - "No deal is better than a bad deal". Both sides of Brexit here have resolutely rejected the deal as bad.. yet they are extending and negotiating in what appears to be futile negotiations... Remember Bob Hawke's promise that no child will be living in poverty a couple of years after he said it.. Last time I was in Aus, there were still kids living in poverty (he later said he read it wrong)...

 

Secondly, if you make the vote mandatory - or mandate people should vote for someone, what happens when no-one has the policies you think will work - or they all have policies you disagree with. In optional voting systems that seem to enjoy the same level of democratic government of Australia - i.e. most European counties, US and many other countries, low voter turnout denies the winning party any mandate to carry out their policies that are not so well recevied by the public. If people were forced to vote, they would have to vote for the least palatable team, and because it would be 100% turnout, they would have a strong mandate.

 

I think it also subliminally assumes that democracy begins and ends at the ballot box; which is unfortunately not democracy at all. China and North Korea have very civil elections... though I would not lump either in the basket of an open and transparent democracy. Of course, no one can really protest (Tianemen square, anyone) so the ballot box is useless. I also don't subscribe to the adage that if you don't vote, you can't complain. If you don't vote, you are possibly sending a message of apathy (in which case, you are unlikely to complain anyway), or you are sending a message you don't approve of anyone - which is still a positive statement. As I have said before, there are other ways people can get involved...

 

As respect to the ballot box preventing bloodshed - well, that is a furphy.. There are plenty of countries in very recent history that have open and free elections, but have still gone to civil war or have had violence impressed upon them at the ballot box. I think the Vegans in Aus got a little jumped up as well because the ballot box wasn't eliminating meat and farming from the Australian landscape. Throughout our history, we have had minor skirmishes; other countries have had military coups that toppled democratically elected governments... etc etc..

 

I think a country's culture is the key determinant. In countries like Aus, NZ, many (not all) European, UK, Iceland, Greenland and even the US, there is a respect for the law, rights and there is a stable system of government that occasionally wobbles, but is generally solid. There is a respect for the process, for equality, for different opinions, and the ability to be heard. When those are suppressed, then things start to go awry. I recall on these fora making a statement that I hadn't seen remainers get violent, but there have been occasional violence of the Brexit camp.. However, on reflection, it may be because they are denied a soapbox to get their views across (most press is pro-remain); they are certainly denied the resources that Ginal Miller has, but even so, was donated to by the establishment to try and fight Brexit in the courts... And the Brexiteers may feel they have no other method to resort to...

 

Liberty and freedoms are what our forefathers fought for - and it is these freedoms that I would defend to the end.. Because without the freedoms of liberty (real liberalism rather than tainiting with the extreme left), people are oppressed and that is when the problems start...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

No, we're getting back there again.

A Falcon Heavy delivered a load to orbit in the last day or so...

 

Things are happening!!

All very impressive, Marty, but they're the same sort of baby steps our species was making half a century ago. Today we have nothing approaching the Saturn Five.

 

At launch, the Apollo craft weighed 3,000 tons. The space race inspired the world. If that momentum had been carried thru, we'd have permanent space stations, moon bases and trips to Mars. The spins-offs in technology would have transformed our way of life far more than even the space program did.

 

Where is the visionary leadership that sets lofty goals and galvanises the people to work towards them?

 

 

[octave]

All very impressive, Marty, but they're the same sort of baby steps our species was making half a century ago. Today we have nothing approaching the Saturn Five.At launch, the Apollo craft weighed 3,000 tons. The space race inspired the world. If that momentum had been carried thru, we'd have permanent space stations, moon bases and trips to Mars. The spins-offs in technology would have transformed our way of life far more than even the space program did.

 

Where is the visionary leadership that sets lofty goals and galvanises the people to work towards them?

 

I think things are happening. I don't think the Apollo was fueled by vision but by competition between UAS and USSR, once the goal was achieved politicians and the public lost interest.

 

The fact that we do not at this point have a rocket as powerful as the Saturn v is not because we can't build one but because without the goal of leaving earth orbit, there has been no use for one. The fact that many people are quite unaware of what is happening is perhaps due to the more routine nature of space flight.

 

In the 60s the idea of people living in space for extended periods would have been considered science fiction but now many people don't give a second thought to the ISS.

 

The necessary technology is being worked on for a visit to Mars. Compared to landing on the Moon, the problems of a trip to Mars are so much more difficult. I think after the Moon landings people some people thought that Mars was just a slightly longer hop. The problems are immense from radiation to the physiological problems that would be faced by the astronauts.

 

We do tend to take for granted the progress that has an is still being made. Launching satellites is much cheaper and more routine than it has ever been. I can find my way around a city or the sky by using satellites, how amazing is that.

 

The Saturn V was hideously expensive and would not have been sustainable. What is being worked on is economically sustainable space travel. Without reusability, further space exploration will be limited.

 

Here is a bit of history of space x and where it is heading in the near future.

 

 

[red750]

I've said it before, but our local member, Michael Sukkar, LNP, is always out meeting constituents. He holds weekly meeting points at shopping centres, railway staions, etc, attends umpty two functions and presentations at sporting clubs, schools etc. He has organised funding for many road improvements in the electorate, extended car parking facilities at major railway stations, security lighting and CCTV at shopping centres - the list goes on. These are not election promises, these are works currently in progress. He supplied funding towards building our men's shed, and bought a Saw-stop saw for the workshop. (Check out Saw-stop on Youtube.) Here is a photo of me (brown jumper) and other shed members talking with Michael (dark suit) on one of his visits to our shed. He also visits other sheds within the electorate. Haven't seen hide nor hair of the ALP candidate.

 

[ATTACH]50018._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]50017._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[facthunter]

Sukkar was part of the Push against Turnbull and to Install Dutton as PM. That's pretty toxic in Victoria. Incidentally I have no time for Turnbull either. but that's irrelevant. The "contest" between LNP and Liberal is splitting the government called the Coalition. No climate change policy for the last 10 years that can last any time. Just what this has cost the Country is hard to measure. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I've said it before, but our local member, Michael Sukkar, LNP, is always out meeting constituents. He holds weekly meeting points at shopping centres, railway staions, etc, attends umpty two functions and presentations at sporting clubs, schools etc...

Red I have no doubt he's a hard-working local member. We had George Souris for years and he was very impressive around the electorate. Trouble is, their party has some pretty short-term policies.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I think things are happening. I don't think the Apollo was fueled by vision but by competition between UAS and USSR, once the goal was achieved politicians and the public lost interest...The Saturn V was hideously expensive and would not have been sustainable. What is being worked on is economically sustainable space travel. Without reusability, further space exploration will be limited.

All true Octave, but space exploration is now very low in most peoples' priorities. As a result, progress has slowed down, visionary leadership has been replaced by complacency. The ISS is impressive, but hasn't broken records set by the Soviet Salyut and Mir space stations decades ago.

 

Worse still, the ISS is scheduled to be abandoned and destroyed very soon.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Red,

 

Yes your local member has provided funding for some local things over his time in power.

 

But that is a very poor metric to celebrate, it is after all his job. Only those with a seat can do that and generally only with the party in power.

 

What has his mob done for the country and your local area that is better than the others might be able to do is the question?

 

Promises made by a incumbent pollie are worth less than an oppositions, ie why havent they already done it. I notice most of their policies are for spending two or three elections away. So they say trust us to do in 10 years time when they have had two terms and done little but argue and knife eachother

 

 

[facthunter]

And IF they don't get back in they don't have to honour it, but keep claiming they would have been able to do it and IF they do get back and don't do it, they can argue changed circumstances. It's Pie in the Sky stuff.. IF ALL this is SO needed why did they wait till one minute to midnight? The Parliament is virtually shut down for 4 months so questions can't be asked. Howard spent to get back in and economists have bagged that ever since as imprudent and a big mistake.. It's your money Ralph, and there's accusations of underfunding things like NDIS and TAFE that are probably true.. A lot of it is over 4 years away and who can foresee that far with any certainty in these times? Nev

 

 

[octave]

space exploration is now very low in most peoples' priorities

Perhaps but this does not mean that progress does not continue. In the past public interest has been crucial for government funding but what we have now are wealthy individuals and their companies. Musk and Space x, Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin, Richard Branson and virgin. We may not have a space race between countries but we do have a Billionaires space race.

 

Because of the Apollo was fully taxpayer-funded we were always treated to news stories showing achievements. Now that these wealthy individuals and companies are funding research and testing there is less of a need to push the PR. They are quite open about the progress they make but mainly you have to have an interest to be aware of it.

 

Space X has successfully fired a rocket motor powered by methane and oxygen rather than hydrogen. There are many advantages to this fuel but the most exciting one is that there is plenty of methane on Mars. It is proposed that autonomous fuel factories could be sent to Mars ahead of a manned mission in order to provide fuel for the return journey.

 

In the future, we will look back at the moon landings as mere short hops. The problems of a Mars mission are so huge that progress may seem slow but the hardware for a Mars landing is being developed now.

 

The ISS is impressive, but hasn't broken records set by the Soviet Salyut and Mir space stations decades ago.

This is not correct.

 

Mir was launched in 1986 and re-entered in 2001 a total of 15 years ISS was launched in 1998 and has been continually occupied since 2000. Whilst they are thinking about the end of ISS this is not just a matter of scrapping it. There are plans to reuse many of the modules. ISS has surpassed Mir in duration, size number of occupants etc.

 

International Space Station - Wikipedia

 

There are also plans for other space stations and indeed space stations specifically designed to aid interplanetary space travel.

 

Space research may not be exciting to the public but it is happening. I remember when a rocket launch was a huge event now it happens so often that we almost don't even notice it. I usually watch rocket launches live on the ESA or NASA sites as well as regular video from ISS.

 

When I was a teenager I was obsessed with astronomy. I still have some of my old books which showed Pluto as a pinprick of light, little did I know that in my lifetime I would get to see detailed pictures of the surface taken by a space probe. Black holes were theoretical objects only seen in books as artists renderings and now we can see a picture of one.

 

I think it is all too easy to fall into the trap of thinking the past was better than the present. There is no past time in which my life would have been more interesting or easier than today.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...we have now are wealthy individuals and their companies. Musk and Space x, Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin, Richard Branson and virgin. We may not have a space race between countries but we do have a Billionaires space race...

Very true, Octave. They have made great progress in a few short years. These private space ventures have picked up the baton long ago tossed away by state players.

 

...Now that these wealthy individuals and companies are funding research and testing there is less of a need to push the PR. They are quite open about the progress they make but mainly you have to have an interest to be aware of it...

If you are inferring that I was unaware, this is not the case. I have keenly followed all space stories for decades and those of Russia China, India, Japan and recently, Israel.

 

...This is not correct...

Well actually it is. Although the ISS is far bigger and better-equipped than Soviet space stations and has been occupied far longer, Mir and Salyut did good work and set impressive endurance records. The longest human spaceflights, made long ago in Mir, have not been exceeded by the ISS.

 

...I think it is all too easy to fall into the trap of thinking the past was better than the present. There is no past time in which my life would have been more interesting or easier than today.

I'm sure not falling into that trap, Octave. I am pleased to see recent advances in space, after all the wasted years- as long as people today appreciate its dwarfed by the massive investments made in space exploration in the past.

 

 

[octave]

If you are inferring that I was unaware, this is not the case. I have keenly followed all space stories for decades and those of Russia China, India, Japan and recently, Israel.

No, not asserting that at all. I assume you have an interest in this area. What I really meant was that it is easy for the public to think that there is no clear agenda being worked through towards a Mars mission. An example is the recent release of the astronaut twin study (Scott and Mark Kelly) looking at the effects of long-duration flight with a view to the problems that may be encountered on a Mars trip.

 

I grew up watching the Apollo missions, they were, of course, awesome but clearly could not continue in that form due to the inevitability of an accident and the enormous expense. This is not how we do things these days. Firstly we expect space travel to be safe and cheap. The good old days were neither safe or cheap. Mars will obviously take longer than the Moon.

 

I am not sure what you mean by "wasted years" After Apollo, there was Skylab, Mir etc. then the space shuttle. Some people say the space shuttle was a failure but it did make space flight somewhat more routine and enabled SSI to be built. It was a shame that the US has spent some years without its own launch system but during those years they have been developing new spacecraft which are about to carry humans.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I see solid incremental progress perhaps not at the breakneck speed of the past. Soon we will have not just one spacecraft to carry humans to space but three.

 

 

[Bruce]

If I had my way, we would be spending much less on the US wars and much more being part of their space stuff. Apparently the US space budget is about equal to Australia's military budget.

 

 

[facthunter]

That miniscule? Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

"true Octave, but space exploration is now very low in most peoples' priorities. "

 

BUT !

 

Why O why, pick a DEAD planet to place your hopes of the future on.

 

A waste of resources,

 

as well as the deaths of ALL those that take that trip.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

"true Octave, but space exploration is now very low in most peoples' priorities. "

 

 

 

is it?  https://spacenews.com/poll-shows-more-public-support-for-nasa-science-programs-than-human-exploration/

 

I mean you are probably somewhat correct in that interest is probably less than it used to be.

 

Why O why, pick a DEAD planet to place your hopes of the future on.

 

Not pinning my hopes on anything.  I guess it is the most suitable planet for human habitation but only with massive technology. This looks interesting  https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/20/nasa-confirms-mission-to-jupiters-moon-europa-to-explore-its-icy-oceans/     These goals may seem pointless to some but a large proportion of what us humans do is pointless.   Flying little aeroplanes is pointless but some of us get enjoyment and ,meaning from it.

 

A waste of resources,

 

Again most of what us humans do could be considered a waste of resources.  In terms of public money, we are now in the age where private companies are the main players, if Musk or Bezos or Branson wish to spend their money on these things that is fine by me.

 

as well as the deaths of ALL those that take that trip.

 

There have been no deaths in space so far and a few deaths getting to and from space.  I don't believe any space agency or private company is going to send people on a trip that is certain to in death.  Of course these things are risky but people do take risks to advance technology, test pilots for example.  

 

I am open to the argument that sending machines may make more sense at this point but to me the point is knowing more is good.  By the way interesting point the NASA budget is 0.49% of the overall US budget.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Octave

 

THEY are all going on a ONE-WAY trip.

 

NO return tickets are being sold.

 

NO external help will be forthcoming.

 

NO atmosphere to stop radiation.

 

NO Bunning's, to get building materials 

 

AND

 

If they all have Hay-fever . no hope.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

THEY are all going on a ONE-WAY trip.

 

NO return tickets are being sold.

 

I would suggest that anyone who has bought a ticket one way or otherwise is being quite optimistic about time frames. It looks like a return to the moon first and I would suspect that before anyone ever steps foot on Mars that there will be staged missions just like the moon landings.  Many missions testing hardware and then eventually perhaps a mission to orbit rather than land. A gradual build up of technology and knowledge.   You quite right about the enormous challenges, human bodies do not fare well in this environment.   The whole colony on Mars scenario I think will happen but not within my lifetime or perhaps even my offsprings lifetime.    The problems you sight are similar to the challenges of landing on the moon and yet this was done 50 years ago, admittedly for a short duration.  I do think we are looking at a scenario of dropping a bunch of colonists off without the technology and knowledge to survive, that would be pointless.