The climate change debate continues.

[octave]

BOM have nothing to do with climate, they deal with weather.

Whilst BoM may not be as involved in long term climate predictions its data does form a part of climate change evidence. I would have assumed that you would have thought BoM was part of the global conspiracy, By the way, do you believe the global average temperature has increased in the last 100 years (for whatever reason)?

 

Climate change – trends and extremes

 

[ATTACH]50089._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Old Koreelah]

Which is the greater risk? Adjustments required by scaling down our dependence on fossil fuels, or becoming the pariah state that the world demands take in millions of climate refugees? (And don't think we could say no; last Saturday’s result shows this country is controlled from elsewhere.)

 

Sea level rise could be much larger than expected

 

 

[Yenn]

Does it really matter if climate change is real or not.

 

Assume it is not real but we act as if it is. We convert to noncoal energy and it does not mean the end of the world as we know it.

 

If we assume it is not real and continue in our present ways we could be causing all sorts of problems.

 

We don't know which assumption is correct but it is obvious which way to go for the safest ride.

 

The whole situation is stuffed up by so many experts / scientists, who don't really know hat to forecast, so they spout doom and gloom.

 

We have been for years that cyclones would get bigger, or they would be more common and neither has happened. We are told there will be floods, but when they happen a lot of them are caused by railways becoming dams. More bushfires will occur, but the cause seems to be less control of fuel, caused by government intervention.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Coming out of the last "Ice-Age", of course it,s getting hotter.

 

Temp prediction for today was 27c. did it happen, No, too much smoke for the sun to get strong. more carbon released LEGALLY.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

The 2 degrees of global warming was based on most countries doing effective stuff. We are actually on course for 6 degrees, which will render the planet uninhabitable.

 

 

[spacesailor]

6 degrees c.

 

In the fifties if the day got 6 c hotter, you would remove your "overcoat, scarf & gloves".

 

15 c, "lets go to the beach" (Derby U K ) IN SUMMER.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I found this interesting chart recording sea level at Fort Denison. Which is consistent with the post-glacial trend.[ATTACH]50092._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[pmccarthy]

As regards rainfall, no evidence of climate change. See the following paper from Melbourne University.

 

Historical extreme rainfall events in southeastern Australia - ScienceDirect

 

 

[nomadpete]

Interesting numbers, PM. However it seems that local measured levels do not represent global levels.

 

I looked at NOAA website and found this...

 

"What's the difference between global and local sea level?

 

Global sea level trends and relative sea level trends are different measurements. Just as the surface of the Earth is not flat, the surface of the ocean is also not flat—in other words, the sea surface is not changing at the same rate globally. Sea level rise at specific locations may be more or less than the global average due to many local factors: subsidence, upstream flood control, erosion, regional ocean currents, variations in land height, and whether the land is still rebounding from the compressive weight of Ice Age glaciers.

 

Sea level is primarily measured using tide stations and satellite laser altimeters. Tide stations around the globe tell us what is happening at a local level—the height of the water as measured along the coast relative to a specific point on land. Satellite measurements provide us with the average height of the entire ocean. Taken together, these tools tell us how our ocean sea levels are changing over time.

 

Global sea level has been rising over the past century, and the rate has increased in recent decades. In 2014, global sea level was 2.6 inches above the 1993 average—the highest annual average in the satellite record (1993-present). Sea level continues to rise at a rate of about one-eighth of an inch per year"

 

 

[nomadpete]

I forgot to add the link to my source....

 

Is sea level rising?

 

It has more info on the present sea studies which include sea level measurements

 

 

[nomadpete]

I guess at the end of the day, so long as it's only inches of sea level rise, all that really matters is how far the sea level rises up our beaches (and canal estates).

 

As NOAA have noted, when you try to make measurements related to long timescales, the rise or fall of continental land masses can screw up the aparrent "sea level" answer.

 

If we want to be sure how much the sea level is going to rise, just wait around for another century (on a hill). By then we'll be pretty sure of the answer. But I wouldn't count on my great grandchildren being particularly nice to me about it. There might be a whole bunch of "lost cities of Atlantis" by then.

 

 

[Bruce]

We, that it our kids, are going to find out the hard way about sea level rise and global warming. And I don't have much sympathy for them,as they could have done much more to influence the last election than they did.

 

The only bright spot was Abbott getting thrown out on the issue, but in Qld, a great many young people voted in favour of a big new coal mine.

 

What will it take to convince people? The scientific evidence is there, but not yet obvious to all. By the time it is obvious, it will be too late...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Short-term self interest triumphed over long-term common sense; helped by saturation anti-labour adverts in north Qld, where Murdoch controls pretty much ALL the media.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I'm still at a loss to explain this. Surely people aren't stupid enough to believe anything that comes out of Clive Palmer's mouth? Do they just not care about the future for their kids, or is it a "head in the sand" mentality?

 

The polls (which are obviously useless) consistently point to high percentages of people, even LNP voters, ranking climate change as high on their list of priorities. And yet when it came to voting, this obviously didn't translate to action.

 

Are they all lying about what they think, or do they actually think the LNP's pitiful efforts are good enough?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Yes the LNP is doing and will do all that is necessary. I just came out of a meeting this morning where Minister Canavan reinforced the commitment to jobs and sensible climate policy.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

That would be reassuring, PM, if they actually realised that "sensible climate policy" will generate more jobs.

 

Unfortunately for us, the LNP has consistently shown they are beholden to the fossil fuel industry.

 

If it were not for the ignorance of Tony Abbott, Australia would right now be manufacturing and exporting wind turbines.

 

LNP politicians have openly talked about subsidising new coal-burners, rather than support sunrise renewable technology that could employ far more of our people and help reduce pollution.

 

Will Australia be part of this exciting technology, or will be be left behind by the rest of the world (including Tunisia)?

 

Just a few exciting wind turbine designs:

 

 

[octave]

Will Australia be part of this exciting technology, or will be left behind by the rest of the world (including Tunisia)?

World’s largest battery: 200MW/800MWh vanadium flow battery – site work ongoing

 

We can always buy technology from China rather than being forward-looking an innovative ourselves.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I am at the Austmine conference in Brisbane. The mining services sector is a multi billion dollar part of our economy. I wish you could all see the presentations on drones, robots, autonomous vehicles etc. mines are gearing up to run on electric loaders and trucks powered by renewables. It is happening as fast as the technology will allow. It is all very well to make generalisations about what should be done. The people in my industry are more committed to change than most of the economy. So am I, but I don’t have to believe the alarmists who are scaring my grandchildren. The world is getting better all the time and the future is exciting.

 

 

[octave]

I wish you could all see the presentations on drones, robots, autonomous vehicles etc. mines are gearing up to run on electric loaders and trucks powered by renewables.

Yes, it is interesting as an avid follower of new technology I am quite aware of this.

 

World's Biggest Battery to Boost Solar in Texas Oil Country

 

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

Caterpillar talks up its new ultra-class electric drive mining trucks - International Mining

 

This is actually one of the reasons I lean towards optimism. We already see building renewable is the cheaper option. We, of course, need some of this to be base load and storage is becoming much cheaper. The price point at which it becomes a no brainer is close. Most new technologies do require a helping hand in their early days. Governments built highways and other infrastructure to facilitate the wider usage of the car. The cost of building a new airport is not only bourne by the travelling public.

 

It is difficult to find a CEO of a mining company or petrochemical company that does not at least publicly accept the evidence for anthropomorphic climate change.

 

Climate Change - Woodside Energy

 

There are new opportunities if we are clever and forward-looking. New technologies are not built of fairy dust, minerals are still required to build batteries etc

 

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/climate-change-and-renewables-driving-new-mining-boom-mining-chief-says-20181029-p50cm5.html

 

As far as climate change goes I suspect that we will never agree and as I say what you or I believe makes little difference. To be honest what I find the most challenging about your opinion is that if you are right we are talking the most massive conspiracy ever involving nearly all the whole scientific community as well almost every scientific body. The only conclusion surely is that NASA etc are corrupt for some reason, you will probably suggest it is to get funding but I would suggest that NASA would do better saying "Hey Donald we can prove climate change is not a problem or not happening, but it will cost a lot" Any proposition that requires a large conspiracy is likely to be problematic. Why are some many so many doubters, not actually climate scientists? Sure this does not make them wrong but many people make claims about cancer but I do not think it is foolish to seek one's treatment from an oncologist rather than an accountant.

 

I must say I am interested in the way this "conspiracy" would work? when was it started? How do all the space agencies make sure their measurements match? Since NASA data can't be relied upon where you advise someone go for information? Is NASAs aeronautical research dodgy as well?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Octave you have forced me to re-read all my posts to see if I used the term conspiracy. I didn’t and don’t believe there is a conspiracy. The closest I came was to say computer modellers are scamming us- I could go into great detail about why I believe this. The alarmists are just doing what they think is best for everyone, but this gives themselves permission to overstate the case. I am sitting in a theatre right now in a presentation on the Epiroc electric mine truck. Technology like this will do more than all the Bob Browns for our environment.

 

 

[facthunter]

A mining vehicle that runs on renewables getting near pure carbon out of the ground more efficiently for BURNING is a great leap forward? You've got to be kidding. .Poison gas was more efficient for killing people than bullets too.

 

A new Coal burning generator doesn't stack up. It takes about 5 years to build. Its not readily able to change it's output and is only efficient close to it's max output. It's next to useless as a standby facility and usually a 50 year life cycle. Practically NOBODY will finance them so if it requires the government to do this, something is going very wrong with the concept. Where's the free market forces we hear about that makes everything work perfectly? It doesn't, of course and most investments are short term . It's difficult to float anything else.

 

Clive is trying to get the government to subsidise his 'stranded assets" by providing the cost of getting them to the port.. He says HE has $4 billion to spend so ( he) doesn't have to listen to anybody he doesn't wish to. He is claiming HE won the election for Morrison. Morrison will OWE him. Murdoch and Pauleen They have just "bought " this government. The preference deals aside which make the real situation. look even less than the MIRACLE it was proclaimed to be . Nev

 

 

[octave]

A mining vehicle that runs on renewables getting near pure carbon out of the ground more efficiently for BURNING is a great leap forward?

I agree but sometimes you have to take any bit of "progress" you can. What I would hope for is that these vehicles will perform so well that other industries might follow. Many new technologies have to overcome resistance to change and scepticism. It is not much a leap forward but at this stage, I will celebrate any small change.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... I am sitting in a theatre right now in a presentation on the Epiroc electric mine truck. Technology like this will do more than all the Bob Browns for our environment.

Good to see the mining industry is embracing renewables, PM. Is it tokenism, or are they fair dinkum?

 

If it wasn't for the Bob Browns of this world they'd be still using pit ponies and children.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Yes the LNP is doing and will do all that is necessary. I just came out of a meeting this morning where Minister Canavan reinforced the commitment to jobs and sensible climate policy.

Please tell me you didn't just use "sensible climate policy" and "Matt Canavan" in the same sentence. His idea of climate policy would be to go back to fully coal powered electricity generation.

 

The trouble with conservatives is that their idea of "jobs" is what currently exists in that area. They have no concept of new industries that would provide far more, and better jobs than some current industries - especially those whose days are numbered. I'm willing to bet that conservative politicians were spruiking the job opportunities in the whaling industry when everyone else could see the writing on the wall.

 

 

[Marty_d]

A mining vehicle that runs on renewables getting near pure carbon out of the ground more efficiently for BURNING is a great leap forward? You've got to be kidding. .Poison gas was more efficient for killing people than bullets too. A new Coal burning generator doesn't stack up. It takes about 5 years to build. Its not readily able to change it's output and is only efficient close to it's max output. It's next to useless as a standby facility and usually a 50 year life cycle. Practically NOBODY will finance them so if it requires the government to do this, something is going very wrong with the concept. Where's the free market forces we hear about that makes everything work perfectly? It doesn't, of course and most investments are short term . It's difficult to float anything else.

 

Clive is trying to get the government to subsidise his 'stranded assets" by providing the cost of getting them to the port.. He says HE has $4 billion to spend so ( he) doesn't have to listen to anybody he doesn't wish to. He is claiming HE won the election for Morrison. Morrison will OWE him. Murdoch and Pauleen They have just "bought " this government. The preference deals aside which make the real situation. look even less than the MIRACLE it was proclaimed to be . Nev

Morrison may "owe" him but he has absolutely no reason to do anything for Palmer. It's not like Palmer will threaten to give his preferences to Labor next election, if the fat bugger hasn't had a heart attack by then.