The climate change debate continues.

[octave]

Octave you have forced me to re-read all my posts to see if I used the term conspiracy. I didn’t and don’t believe there is a conspiracy. The closest I came was to say computer modellers are scamming us- I could go into great detail about why I believe this. The alarmists are just doing what they think is best for everyone, but this gives themselves permission to overstate the case. I am sitting in a theatre right now in a presentation on the Epiroc electric mine truck. Technology like this will do more than all the Bob Browns for our environment.

The climate models are not the sole evidence. I think it was Arrehenius in the 1890s that proposed that the earth climate warmed by increasing the amount of CO2. It is only since 1960 that climate modelling has had any input into the debate. Getting rid of the models does not invalidate the physics.

 

but this gives themselves permission to overstate the case.

Just to be clear are you saying there is a case but it is being overstated?

 

I am not suggesting you have use the word conspiracy however my take is that it is implied.

 

"The world expert on the Maldives is Niklas Nils-Axel Morner:

 

He wrote the official report on sea level (which was unsurprisingly

 

suppressed):"

 

You posted a link to something called Climate Change and political Pollution, here is the last paragraph:

 

"Don’t be fooled: we can’t control the weather nor are we doomed to apocalyptic destruction. The data contradict the propaganda: no quick melting of the ice caps, no worrisome increase in sea level or hurricanes, no tales of terror. We are facing an aggressive political agenda, based on a totalitarian, Malthusian and pagan ideology, promoted by a powerful and noisy minority, in which the apocalyptic threat is nothing more than an effective instrument to manipulate public opinion. Science has been hijacked and polluted by politics. Our planet is not in danger, but our freedom most certainly is.

 

You also said this: #56 "You ask for sea level, temperature and ice loss data rather than opinion. I have posted links before to explanations of how the data has been manipulated and misrepresented.

 

#160 NASA is a victim of the funding trap and the need to maintain public support. There are plenty of credible studies that refute NASA interpretations of the data, but they are almost impossible to get published or peer reviewed. Also reputable popular science journals like New Scientist, for example, refuse to publish material that goes against the alarmist doctrine. Make no mistake, this is public hysteria on the scale of the Salem witch hunts. It isn't evil, just misguided.

 

We could argue about what constitutes a conspiracy but some of the above would seem to lean that way.

 

Whilst you may not doubt the actual satellite readings or temperature records some do. They misrepresent data harmonization without understanding how or why it is done and they ignore the fact that many reading harmonizations are in fact down rather than up. They suggest that scientist are biased in order to make money however they rarely apply the same scepticism to perhaps a geologist who may have work or wish to work for the companies that employ geologists.

 

 

[octave]

https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/mining/bhp-foresees-phase-out-of-energy-coal-ng-s-1945403

[spacesailor]

"The world expert on the Maldives is Niklas Nils-Axel Morner:

 

He wrote the official report on sea level (which was unsurprisingly

 

suppressed):"

 

Perhaps he lives on one of the low coral-atolls in central pacific. I hope it's not a HIGH TIDE, that engulfs his island, ( highest tide occur'd in the Bay of Fundy, 15 m, Nova Scotia).

 

Port Hedland is the second highest tide at, about 8mtrs, Derby's King sound 11mtrs.

 

The islanders are talking about a 50CM sea rising, flooding them

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

They are talking abut the reference datum that the tidal variation relates to. You can't melt above ground ice (non floating) and warm the water without sea level rise. Both are happening. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Why the obstinate defence of subsidised, polluting, outmoded energy sources?

 

As a species we have been at our best when venturing forth into new frontiers.

 

Imagining a world without fossil fuels - BBC Ideas

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I agree that overpopulation is the real problem and I truly expect some global catastrophe will solve it within the next 200 years or so...

I doubt it will take that long, PM. Even before the recent resurgence of China, our species was gobbling up our planet's resources far faster then they could be replenished. For everyone on the planet to live as well as you or I, would require the resources of several earths, and we've only got the one.

 

All those nice sayings, like "tread lightly on the earth" and "there's always room at the top" are meaningless when there is standing room only:

 

Congestion on Everest leads to backlog of climbers in 'death zone'

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I have seen many filthy coal mines around the world. People near them lead short lives due to dust and pollution. Those countries will burn coal anyway, so sending them Australian coal is helping the environment. I think our pollies understand that.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's a con act. They are doing it because they are making money, and lots of it. Lets stop kidding ourselves. Mining always creates a two stage economy but is (these days ) boom and bust.. Centralised energy systems are generally monopolies. There's no real competition. Producers gouge the system by agreement and don't try to keep prices down. To the contrary, they push them as high as possible before ensuring a supply or don't even bother.. The dust that gets on your car in Newcastle every day is also getting in your lungs. You can see it on most days from Swansea to Taree. My ancestors were Coal miners and I know what went on and still does. Black lung is occurring in the Hunter area That's a disgrace. .Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

A good sign of things coming....

 

Maybe Canberra can bring us something good after all? ..........

 

Canberra will be 'effectively' run on 100 per cent renewable energy from October

 

 

[spacesailor]

"Producers gouge the system by agreement and don't try to keep prices down".

 

AND the government wants it that way, as every dollar spent puts 10 cents in it's coffers !.

 

The more your power cost you, the more the government gets in GST.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

"Producers gouge the system by agreement and don't try to keep prices down".AND the government wants it that way, as every dollar spent puts 10 cents in it's coffers !.

 

The more your power cost you, the more the government gets in GST.

 

spacesailor

True but of course gst is not kept by the government but used to pay for things like your pension and health care.

 

 

[spacesailor]

WISH LIST

 

A pension from the amount of the collected gst . ( it must be More than what the government lets go into the Pension)

 

If the government "don't get it" Who does ?.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

WISH LISTA pension from the amount of the collected gst . ( it must be More than what the government lets go into the Pension)

 

If the government "don't get it" Who does ?.

 

spacesailor

The government spends what it gets in tax revinue and often more. You do undertstsnd that the budget is in deficit dont you????? This means it spends more than it gets.

 

 

[Bruce]

Today I divided the world's military spending by the coal tonnage produced.

 

The answer was $247 dollars per tonne. So if the world stopped military spending for a few years, the coal miners could be paid $123 per tonne to leave it alone and the farmers could be paid $123 a tonne to make charcoal for burying.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"You do undertstsnd that the budget is in deficit dont you????? This means it spends more than it gets."

 

NOT according to Sco mo !.

 

Labor made ALL that dept, AND his government has made a surplus.

 

HE , doesn't lie. does he.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

"You do undertstsnd that the budget is in deficit dont you????? This means it spends more than it gets."NOT according to Sco mo !.

 

Labor made ALL that dept, AND his government has made a surplus.

 

HE , doesn't lie. does he.

 

spacesailor

"The 2018 budget forecast a deficit of $18.2 billion. ... The 2017 budget forecast government spending to be in surplus in the 2020/21 fiscal year, while the 2018 budget forecast a surplus of $2.2 billion in2019/20. The government's debt level is forecast to be $629 billion in 2019/20."

 

Scott Morrison finally acknowledges budget remains in deficit as voters go to the polls

 

But we are not in surplus are we?

 

And if/when we are you do understand that surplus means you earn more than your operating expenses and after sevicing your debt interest you have some left over. You can have a surplus but still be in debt.

 

Space is there anything that you are not unhappy with?

 

 

[Marty_d]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that Spacey may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek.

 

 

[octave]

Reply

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that Spacey may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek.

Ah could be, I am of the opinion that we need a specific font for sarcarsm.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Didn't somebody famous once say "Sarcasm, the lowest form of wit"?

 

 

[spacesailor]

"a specific font for sarcarsm."

 

"Sarcasm, the lowest form of wit"?

 

LoL

 

No use crowing about "how good you are" financially, That dept is greater to day, BUT we have a surplus !.

 

18b in 2018, and "forecast to be $629 billion in 2019/20."

 

I couldn't run a household budget like that, even paying off the mortgage, Too many red ticks in the book-keeping, cannot be good.

 

"while the 2018 budget forecast a surplus of $2.2 billion in2019/20" $2.2b -- $18b ???? I cant find any surplus ???.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I have seen many filthy coal mines around the world. People near them lead short lives due to dust and pollution. Those countries will burn coal anyway, so sending them Australian coal is helping the environment. I think our pollies understand that.

PM I appreciate your measured contribution to this debate, but even my right-wing sources are saying otherwise.

 

Australia has become dangerously dependant on exporting coal, as our international markets are rapidly falling out of love with the stuff. China is building rail lines to allow it full access to its huge coal deposits, while also moving their focus to other energy sources. That alone (even if China's economy doesn't crash soon) will cause huge reductions in demand for our coal. Other rising nations to our north, such as India and Indonesia are also rapidly turning to far cheaper energy sources, particularly renewables.

 

The trend away from coal power is (pun) gathering steam. Major miners like Rio Tinto have already got out of the coal industry and banks won't lend for coal-burners.

 

Despite knowing this, our short-sighted government is taking you and I out on an economic limb by supporting the opening up of a huge new hole in the ground in Queensland, which is predicted to force southern coal mines out of business and pollute our greatest natural assets (the GAB and GBR).

 

What a clever country.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a 4.7 billion deficit this year and the "We are in the BLACK" dramatic FORECAST is to happen NEXT year .It's all smoke and mirrors. with the debt having doubled since Labor left , Not something they mention often/ EVER... A weakening currency against the rest of the world as well as it looks like the Reserve Bank will drop the interest rate to try to stimulate the economy. The interest rate is already at a record low so the effect is not large and really low interest rates an certainly not normal or considered GOOD.. Geez I'm glad we have such good economic managers or we might have problems . Perhaps it was a loaded gun left to hand to Labor that they unexpectedly ended up with themselves. Amazing choice to put Angus Taylor. into anything related to Climate change. . Shows they are not even slightly fair dinkum. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...It's all smoke and mirrors. with the debt having doubled since Labor left , Not something they mention often/ EVER...

The myth makers have hoodwinked the average Aussie for generations, Nev. The LNP have presided over much greater increases in our national debt than Labor.

 

Foreign business interests have always controlled this country. They control our media and have fooled most voters into thinking their mates in the LNP are better managers of our nation than the ALP.

 

The Murdoch media sets the national agenda and diverts attention from colossal mismanagement by the LNP, while stirring up scandals about comparatively trivial misdemeanors by the other side of politics.

 

We could fill a book with the stupid, short-sighted, even corrupt decisions of Howard and his cronies. We are all paying for his mistakes, yet who read about them in the Murdoch rags?

 

ALP leaders have been far from perfect, but at least there were valiant attempts at protecting our national interests.

 

Why is even the ALP reduced to proposing tax increases on our middle class, while foreign corporations rip huge profits from this country, but pay no tax? Where is the outrage?

 

 

[spacesailor]

"foreign corporations rip huge profits from this country, but pay no tax? Where is the outrage?"

 

A helping hand to the multinationals, by Nation/liberal governments, Making out dept greater than ever.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

The GST was introduced with the stated intention of retiring state charges. IF they THEN don't pass it back to the states, how does that work? it relies on integrity. It's a blunt instrument further oppressing the already near destitute ( Anyone who is receiving a pension).and requires heaps of paperwork to collect and promotes a cashless economy approach and other negative things to POLICE it. IT will be increased (dog help us) as it's popular from those who really don't pay it to put on those who can't afford it.. Nev.