The climate change debate continues.

[Bruce]

Is it really science or is it statistics. We hear that carbon in  the atmosphere has been increasing. We hear that temperatures are increasing. It is statistics that puts the two together and says one causes the other. Also some of the statistics are a bit dodgy. Temperature used to be measured at certain times by someone who read the thermometer. Nowadays it is recorded digitally and the Max temp really the max for the day. The old way I doubt that the max temp occurred at the exact time the thermometer was read, plus the fact that thermometers read to the nearest degree, not decimal point of one.

 

As for sea levels rising. my people live in England, near one of the Cinque Ports, Rye. If sea levels are rising Rye shows no evidence of it. There is only water there at high tide, the rest of the time it is miles inland and dry.

 

I still believe we should reduce our reliance on coal, use sustainable methods of doing everything and definitely go along with taxing plastic packaging.

 

They used max/min thermometers even in the 1950's. These thermometers left an internal pin at the extreme point for the day and after you read it, you would shake the thing to reset the pin. 

 

 

[Bruce]

As for CO2 causing warming, the physics is so simple that ( for a dry planet ) you could expect a senior high-school physics class to do the maths. It is the fact of clouds which makes it a difficult problem.

 

About 50 million years ago the planet had a lot of CO2 in the air and had very high temperatures. The evidence for all this is in ocean sediments, so there is nothing very new going on.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Maybe Trump wants America to be a sheltered workshop using old technology...

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49591143

 

 

[Litespeed]

You could be onto something.

 

Trump has lived in a sheltered workshop his whole life. Only natural he wants the country in his image.

 

Pop and Ma trump should have used condoms

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

America, a time warp where you can still see things long ago phased out by everyone else. 

 

Miles, feet, inches, pounds, fluid ounces, Fahrenheit, gas guzzlers, guns everywhere, institutional corruption,  ... and now incandescent light bulbs.

 

Perhaps the place is overdue for a major trauma, which would allow them to take stock of everything they thought was true. They could toss out all that is silly or destructive about their society. 

 

Maybe they need to reset their country, as did Germany and Japan, two of our planet's most successful nations.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Bruce, there is little doubt that spaceship Earth has experienced severe climate extremes in its geological past .

 

However, there weren't any hoomin Beens around to notice it 50 million years ago. And when (not 'if') it happens again, it's likely that hoomin beens will die out. I don't like the idea of hastening the process.

 

 

[Bruce]

I notice that kids are going to start protesting about climate change. Good on them, say I. If they are prepared to make some sacrifices to save the planet, we should support them.

 

Personally, I would do anything to save the planet as long as it didn't cost me money or stop me doing things I like. I hope the kids are better than me.

 

 

[octave]

I notice that kids are going to start protesting about climate change. Good on them, say I. If they are prepared to make some sacrifices to save the planet, we should support them.

 

Personally, I would do anything to save the planet as long as it didn't cost me money or stop me doing things I like. I hope the kids are better than me.

 

 I attended the one in Geelong, it was well organised by these intelligent articulate young people.  There were as many if not more older folks there.

 

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[willedoo]

 

 

 

[willedoo]

 I attended the one in Geelong, it was well organised by these intelligent articulate young people.  There were as many if not more older folks there.

 

I read where there were over 2,000 businesses who endorsed it and allowed employees time off to attend.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I was at the Hobart one with my three primary-school kids.  When I went to sign them out of school there were already three full pages of names who'd left for the rally.

 

They were a bit young for it, and my 9-year old (who's obviously been confusing US news with Australia) was scared of being in the crowd in case someone opened fire.  But an ice cream afterwards made up for it.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

My grandies are protesting, while I'm

 

away burning AvGas.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

A new book by Naomi Klein (On Fire:The burning case for a new green deal) admits that the climate debate is really about capitalism versus socialism. It is a culture war. She is a socialist and says that the climate skeptics are right in seeing the debate as political. I have only read the review in this week's New Scientist (14 Sept p30) and I will not be buying the book! But it is pleasing to have confirmation that my skepticism has not been paranoia.

 

 

[willedoo]

A new book by Naomi Klein (On Fire:The burning case for a new green deal) admits that the climate debate is really about capitalism versus socialism. It is a culture war. She is a socialist and says that the climate skeptics are right in seeing the debate as political. I have only read the review in this week's New Scientist (14 Sept p30) and I will not be buying the book! But it is pleasing to have confirmation that my skepticism has not been paranoia.

 

No doubt there's politics involved. If it was primarily about capitalism versus socialism, I can only see two aspects to that. One is that emission control measures push us further toward a socialist economy and lifestyle. Maybe it might to a certain degree. Or is it an issue that socialism would be the better system to deliver the hoped for climate outcomes. Secondly, does it imply that socialism produces less emissions. Possibly in a utopian future that might be possible, but it hasn't happened in past experience of socialism. The former USSR as the then number two manufacturer and exporter had more than their share of pollution. And now that China is up and running industrially, they certainly produce their share of it.

 

I'm not savvy enough with the subject to know one way or another if it's a capitalism vs socialism thing.

 

 

[Marty_d]

A new book by Naomi Klein (On Fire:The burning case for a new green deal) admits that the climate debate is really about capitalism versus socialism. It is a culture war. She is a socialist and says that the climate skeptics are right in seeing the debate as political. I have only read the review in this week's New Scientist (14 Sept p30) and I will not be buying the book! But it is pleasing to have confirmation that my skepticism has not been paranoia.

 

 

 

If you look at her history I don't think you can write off her views on climate change as just an opportunity to move from capitalism to socialism.

 

That's a very small fig leaf to cover your skepticism.

 

 

[octave]

So the first thing on my FB feed  this morning was posted by a friend (now ex friend)  of a park full of rubbish. The Title of this picture claimed it was the disgusting aftermath of the climate march in Sydney.   The crusty old commenters were incandescent with rage. Look at these horrible young people who claim to be concerned about the environment trash Sydney's Hyde park.    Immediately my BS sensor went off. For a start having lived in Sydney in the past  (as the poster also does)  this did not look like Hyde park Sydney.  After quick search I found that this is an old picture  from a different event in a different country and was first posted in april and not at all related to the climate event. It is not hard for an intelligent person to fact check. Pretty disgusting tactics  Apparently propagated by the facebook group The Australian Youth Coal Coalition.   Other versions of this tactic have appeared overseas also.

 

  https://7news.com.au/news/climate-change/the-real-story-behind-viral-photo-of-climate-change-protesters-leaving-rubbish-behind-in-sydneys-hyde-park-c-465028

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/protesters-hyde-park-rubbish/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/21/climate-strikes-hoax-photo-accusing-australian-protesters-of-leaving-rubbish-behind-goes-viral

 

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/climate-change/the-picture-of-rubbish-left-behind-by-climate-change-protest-exposed-as-fake-news-ng-b881330435z

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/climate-change/a-climate-change-photo-that-has-been-shared-more-than-34000-times-has-outraged-facebook-users/news-story/2271ff0fd36fe1be9282b31be1de3977

 

 

[Bruce]

I like Dick Smith's idea that only those under 30 should have a vote on climate change matters. The rest of us will be dead when the worst of things happen.

 

 

[spacesailor]

SO My Grandson is 31 & Not to have the vote for His children.

 

THAT SUCKS .

 

SPACESAILOR

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Has it not occurred to you that the Australian Youth Coal Coalition is a plant by the anti- coal movement? It seems obvious.

 

 

[willedoo]

So the first thing on my FB feed  this morning was posted by a friend (now ex friend)  of a park full of rubbish. The Title of this picture claimed it was the disgusting aftermath of the climate march in Sydney.   The crusty old commenters were incandescent with rage. Look at these horrible young people who claim to be concerned about the environment trash Sydney's Hyde park.    Immediately my BS sensor went off. For a start having lived in Sydney in the past  (as the poster also does)  this did not look like Hyde park Sydney.  After quick search I found that this is an old picture  from a different event in a different country and was first posted in april and not at all related to the climate event. It is not hard for an intelligent person to fact check. Pretty disgusting tactics  Apparently propagated by the facebook group The Australian Youth Coal Coalition.   Other versions of this tactic have appeared overseas also.

 

Reminds me of those chain emails. Mostly U.S. in origin - the pro Trump, anti Muslim, pro gun type. A huge percentage of the material in them is straight out fabricated. I'm sure people create them for a laugh just to see how far some bs can go. The surprising thing is how many gullible people believe it. They believe it because it's what they want to be true.

 

 

[octave]

Has it not occurred to you that the Australian Youth Coal Coalition is a plant by the anti- coal movement? It seems obvious.

 

Really drifting into conspiracy territory there.   Let's say that was true, it is just as disturbing how quickly this story was spread and how many people wanted to believe it was true. 

 

No doubt there's politics involved. If it was primarily about capitalism versus socialism, I can only see two aspects to that. One is that emission control measures push us further toward a socialist economy and lifestyle.

 

 

 

So do you really believe this? 

 

Equating emission controls with some sort of socialist plot seems pretty whacky to me.

 

I live on part time work and my investments, I certainly have no wish to tear down the economy.

 

  So was Joseph Fourier a rampant socialist? How about Tyndall or Arrhenius?   Are  CSIRO koolaide drinking socialists?   How about the board of BHP?  Bom secret plan to introduce socialism. Sorry that just sounds lame. Of course there are some who may have this goal but this does not change the physics.

 

 If the weight of the evidence contradicts the theory then I will happily  abandon it.  The weight of the evidence supports the theory at this point in time. Sure, you can cherry pick articles graphs and study but you have to admit that the evidence against is sparse. 

 

I am going with the consensus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change I believe this is rational. 

 

I doesn't really matter what a few people believe, the changes are happening.  I am not anti miner, in fact like any technological revolution we are going to need minerals such as cobalt, lithium, copper etc.        

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

It’s often been said that patriotism is last resort of a scoundrel. Now that every dog and his man has accepted that we’re in trouble, the diehard, entrenched fossil fuel lobby trots out communism, socialism (or some other  perceived evil) to muddy the waters.

 

If that doesn't work, perhaps they will say that climate warriors are actually closet neo-nazis... 

 

 

[willedoo]

So do you really believe this?

 

No I don't Octave. I was commenting on the only options I could see possible if what the previous poster said about the capitalist/socialist thing was true. I don't personally believe it's true.

 

As you say " Equating emission controls with some sort of socialist plot seems pretty whacky to me. ". It seems pretty wacky to me as well. Is it possible you might have misinterpreted the context of my post?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I read in a this morning's paper that couples are voluntarily removing themselves from the gene pool because of fears about global warming. And I read last week that primary school children don’t expect to see adulthood. Doesn’t anyone else see how whacky this is? Even if you believe the alarmist consensus totally, climate change is a risk much less than overpopulation, species extinction and urban spread. These are things we can do something about to greatly improve the future.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

In support of my previous post, this chart by Johan Rockstrom shows where our planet is most threatened.

 

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