The climate change debate continues.

[pmccarthy]

Just had my feed in tariff reduced. 

[onetrack]

I'm on a 10 year contract for feed-in power at 40c per kW/h. But it expires in 12 mths time. So I need to do some planning as to what is best to do, as far as upgrades go.

The feed-in tariff drops back to a whisker over 7c per kW/h at present in W.A. I can't see that changing anytime soon, and it may even go down.

I currently have a minimal-size 1.5Kw solar system, but I will have to upgrade to a serious size solar system, before June next year.

I'm thinking about the possibility of going completely off-grid. There are some serious dollars involved in batteries, heat exchangers and other storage systems, though.

But I'm not sure that going off-grid is economic just for the two of us.

[Old Koreelah]

The general trend in prices for solar panels, batteries and associated control gear is down; early adopter pay heaps, those of us who wait get a better deal.

But... the developing diplomatic spat with China, recession and fluctuating A$ might reverse that trend.

 

Meanwhile, plenty of us would like some level of independence from the grid in case  TSHTF. 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

Is your decision going to be based on financial balance or ideological?

 

I have a 3kw rooftop grid feed system. Like you, I now have minimal feedin dollars showing up on my bill. However, my system provides just a little short of the same ANNUAL kWh as we use.

So, in theory, we could put another couple of panels up, with a battery and smallish generator,  and go off grid.

 

Cost of setup by our local solar company was estimated to be $10,000 to $12,000. (Not Elon's lithium one)

 

For me, the amortisation period (break even) when all costs are included is at least 10 years.

 

That's how my sums worked out.

[old man emu]

40 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

For me, the amortisation period (break even) when all costs are included is at least 10 years.

 

That amortisation period might be too long for retirees or near-retirees, but what about people up to, say 40 years of age? The younger the new home-owners are, the less that amortisation period is as part of their lives. You also have to take into account the useful life of the dwelling. The only reason we knock down dwellings now is for complete rebuilding of an old, small dwelling, or if the dwelling has been seriously damaged. It is reasonable to expect a dwelling to last at least 100 years. That's gives a dwelling 90 years of "free" electricity. (Correct that figure by stating the expected useful life of a solar panel.)

[nomadpete]

I only showed my result based on time because, for me, I might not last as long as the battery. If I went ahead, it would be an act of anarchy. Just to give the finger to the establishment.

If I was a bit younger, I'd definitely go off the grid. I don't mind being responsible for my stuff. And in the long term I'd be saving money.

BTW, my numbers are based on current prices - worked out last week. And not based on a marginal system.

[Old Koreelah]

Meanwhile, back to the topic:

While Siberia burns-

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/17/climate-crisis-alarm-at-record-breaking-heatwave-in-siberia

 

Back in Canberra, the LNP hands over control to the fossil fuel lobby:

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/covert-19-government-stacks-covid-commission-with-oil-and-gas-mates-cosy-deals-follow/

 

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Meanwhile, back to the topic:

While Siberia burns-

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/17/climate-crisis-alarm-at-record-breaking-heatwave-in-siberia

 

Since that article was written, Verkhoyansk in Eastern Siberia has recorded a world record for hottest day within the Arctic Circle, 38 Celsius. Previous temperatures in the town have ranged from -68 to +37.

[nomadpete]

Old K, that pair of links just made me fume.

I feel so helpless. Our government is selling out. And there is nothing I can do about it.

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Back in Canberra, the LNP hands over control to the fossil fuel lobby:

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/covert-19-government-stacks-covid-commission-with-oil-and-gas-mates-cosy-deals-follow/

There's some interesting reading in that article regarding the proposals of some of the energy companies. The Woodside proposal for workers to do a 14 week hitch consisting of 12 weeks work and two weeks isolation is counter productive. Having done FIFO work for half my life, I know how bush happy you can get doing long hitches. I started in the industry doing 6 weeks on, 2 off, and graduated to 4 on, 2 off. But mixed in that were a lot of 10 and 12 week hitches. When you work 14 hours a day, 7 days per week, there's only a certain amount of time elapses before long term fatigue causes dangerous mistakes to happen. If you stay out longer that 6 weeks, your own dog will bark at you when you get home. 

[Old Koreelah]

22 hours ago, willedoo said:

...If you stay out longer that 6 weeks, your own dog will bark at you when you get home. 

Crickey, is it that bad?

 

Seriously though, the pendulum has swung so far against workers rights that safety is being compromised. How many of us can be fully functional after 12 hours on the job? Isolation from family is a whole other factor; wouldn't be too hard to tally up the cost of these long stints on marriages, kids' development and mental health. 

 

FI-FO is probably cheaper than building mining towns and all the necessary facilities, but it's also shifting some of the costs to the employees.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Old K, that pair of links just made me fume.

I feel so helpless. Our government is selling out. And there is nothing I can do about it.

Sorry to say this Pete, but that's just the tip of a very dirty iceberg. Australia has rapidly become as corrupted by political lobbyists as has America. Behind the scenes, Morrison is just like Trump in his determination to destroy hard-won protections for workers and the environment. 

 

Sectors like higher education, music, movies and live entertainment, so vital to our economic future, have been hammered by the Covid-19 lockdown but what help did they get from governments? What an insult when the fossil fuels and mining companies, barely impacted by the lockdown, are given priority by Morrison.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Returning to off the grid or not...  When we built down at the farm, I really wanted to live off the grid. The sticking point was the fridge, when my wife said that living with a converted chest freezer was out of the question.  Now one of these uses 1/3 the energy of a door fridge, and it is the main load. So we went with the grid.

Ten years later, I reckon we made the right choice back then, my son says that he has visited several off the grid properties and they all say they would much rather be on the grid than off it. They say it is cheaper and more reliable to be on the grid. Ten years is about the life of the batteries.

I keep looking at junk mail from appliance places and have yet to see a top-opening fridge.

A possibility  would be a stored-brine system, where there was several days worth of stored brine. You could even drive the compressor directly from a wind source to cool the brine tank ( I am using the word brine in its technical sense.. it probably would be a glycol mix these days . About 2000 litres of -10 degrees C liquid).

A nice idea but expensive to do as a one-off. You would need a couple of pumps and control gear.

For me, the living off the grid idea would be mainly idealogical. At the same price, I would rather have  my own system. Alas it is not yet at the same price.

For water and sewage, we are off the grid and I reckon we are much better off this way. Not that any grid exists out here except for the swer lines.

Just yesterday, the SWER line had a problem and we copped a $736 fee for "reconnection" which took all of about ten minutes. 

[pmccarthy]

My daughter's lead-acid battery pack is dying after seven years and they will replace with new technology, but at considerable expense.

[willedoo]

9 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Returning to off the grid or not...  When we built down at the farm, I really wanted to live off the grid. The sticking point was the fridge, when my wife said that living with a converted chest freezer was out of the question.  Now one of these uses 1/3 the energy of a door fridge, and it is the main load. So we went with the grid.

Ten years later, I reckon we made the right choice back then, my son says that he has visited several off the grid properties and they all say they would much rather be on the grid than off it. They say it is cheaper and more reliable to be on the grid. Ten years is about the life of the batteries.

I keep looking at junk mail from appliance places and have yet to see a top-opening fridge.

Bruce, Kogan sell them & Dick Smith as well. I think they are all made by the same mob, -1°C to 10°C Fridge temperature range & -24°C to -12°C Freezer temperature range'. You can use them as a fridge or freezer, depending what temperature you dial in.

 

https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-198l-interchangeable-chest-fridge-and-freezer-white/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_ads&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI49rypP6j6gIVmXwrCh0CqQRmEAQYBSABEgJgBfD_BwE

 

As well as the 198lt., they also make smaller ones, 362 & 142lt.. Sounds a good idea to me, but as you say probably not wife friendly when it comes to rummaging in the fridge from above.

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by willedoo

[Bruce Tuncks]

Thanks willedoo. They are exactly what I was referring to, and I didn't know about those. They are not even expensive to buy.

I reckon it is the attitude of the wife that determines whether you can live off the grid or not. The one guy I know who does this had his wife leave him years ago.

Batteries are a problem, but if you can delay doing some job because they are not well charged, you could live with less battery power and save heaps.

 

[Old Koreelah]

On 17 July 2020 at 5:06 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

I reckon it is the attitude of the wife that determines whether you can live off the grid or not. The one guy I know who does this had his wife leave him years ago....

Sad but true, Bruce. It's getting harder for rural blokes to find a woman prepared to live the isolated life, even if the home has all the mod cons. Many leave and take half the family farm with them, so if you find the right one, treat her well

Quote

Batteries are a problem, but if you can delay doing some job because they are not well charged, you could live with less battery power and save heaps...

Recently I was offered a very tempting system that combined all the benefits of being both on-grid and off-grid; a battery-based storage system with a smart connection that allows it to feed power back into the network when the demand (and price) is high.

Spot electricity prices can be astronomical, this system might even pay for itself in a few short years.

 

If enough people installed this sort of system, the power grid would easily be able to overcome the current day-night supply problems. 

 

Sadly, I lacked the readies to buy it. Hopefully, this sort of deal will become more common (and affordable) in future.

[octave]

6 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Recently I was offered a very tempting system that combined all the benefits of being both on-grid and off-grid; a battery-based storage system with a smart connection that allows it to feed power back into the network when the demand (and price) is high.

Spot electricity prices can be astronomical, this system might even pay for itself in a few short years.

 

This sort of thing is the future I believe and it is starting to happen.

 

Affordable Eco Housing; is this what we should be building? | 100% Independent, 100% Electric

[Old Koreelah]

On 29 August 2020 at 6:37 PM, octave said:

 

This sort of thing is the future I believe and it is starting to happen.

 

Affordable Eco Housing; is this what we should be building? | 100% Independent, 100% Electric

Great to see, Octave. How embarrassing that cloudy, cold Wales could be showing up sunny Australia, where we still get 60% of our electricity from burning coal. The LNP dinasours holding this country back will not be treated well by future historians.

 

I've been advocating solar design for four decades and the resistance and downright pig ignorance of my fellow citizens has astounded me. I've had friends and relatives visit the passive solar home we built, express surprise that it's so cool, then go and mortgage their life to buy a standard, overpriced suburban box with dark tile roof, facing the western sun, then complain about their air-con costs!

[facthunter]

Exactly. The' modern semi' modular dark exterior walls and roof and no eaves and no room for a tree on a tiny block. It will wreck the house eventually anyhow with it's roots. Just makes neighbours fight each other over leaves and parking in each other's drives, dogs kids and loud music. I've gotten away from that stuff but it's happening all around me. Nev

[onetrack]

Here in the West, we are rapidly facing a major adjustment to the interface between solar power and generated power, as the amount of solar installations start to destabilise the generation system. It's a problem that other States will eventually have to face.

Solar panels in W.A.'s South West now account for 1200MW of combined output, as compared to the States generation capacity of 6000MW. Solar panels are now effectively W.A.'s biggest power station.

 

Solar feed-in is now starting to act as a power-grid destabilisation factor here, and something has to be done about it. Either battery storage or some other type of power storage, is becoming an urgent issue.

This is the missing part of the power generation equation all along - the need to be able to store the intermittent electricity generated - whether it's solar, wind, or whatever.

 

The State Govt has also gone big on wind and solar generation, as well as Natural Gas power generation, because we have no decent coal supplies to speak of.

But the more the State installs wind and solar power, the more the lack of storage capacity, is going to raise its ugly head. At present, I see little option but for the State to install a Neoen Tesla battery, as S.A. has done.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-31/wa-solar-subsidy-overhaul-to-avoid-grid-overload/12608036

Edited September 3, 2020 by onetrack

[Old Koreelah]

On 3 September 2020 at 12:24 PM, onetrack said:

Here in the West, we are rapidly facing a major adjustment to the interface between solar power and generated power, as the amount of solar installations start to destabilise the generation system...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-31/wa-solar-subsidy-overhaul-to-avoid-grid-overload/1260803

Yes OT, we're reading about that issue in the media and hearing critics blame solar and other renewables for destabilising the network, but Blind Freddy knew this was coming decades ago; why have the authorities not adapted the system to cope?

 

Storage is getting cheaper all the time. Here in NSW there have been small pilot projects to encourage homeowners to install batteries; sadly, my area missed out and pandemic recession might mean the program is not repeated.

 

As outlined in a previous post, I was offered a smart battery system that feeds power back into the grid when demand is high. With the crazy spot prices often seen, it might have paid for itself in a few short years, as well as giving me off-grid type backup. Sadly, I couldn't afford it, but if lots of people installed this type of system the grid would be easily stabilised.

 

[spacesailor]

AND ?.

New Solar instalations wil be switchable by the buying company.

The will turn your solar OFF, when They need your money.

(  read it somewhere   )

spacesailor

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by spacesailor
Missed sentence

[octave]

2 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

AND ?.

New Solar instalations wil be switchable by the buying company.

The will turn your solar OFF, when They need your money.

(  read it somewhere   )

spacesailor

 

 

 

It has always been the case that just because you have excess power to sell it does not mean that the network needs to buy it. It is not to do with money but with the local network voltage.  During times when there is plenty of sunshine but low demand the local network voltage rises. On our system we have a microinverter on each panel.  When our system senses that the local network voltage is too high it will switch off 1 or more of our panel micro inverters until the voltage drops to a predetermined level.  This is to regulate the network.    Our system which we had installed in January this year has been economically good.   The feedback tariff is not the main saving although our latest bill has a $41 credit on it.   The main saving comes from using our own power rather than selling it back to the supplier.  The monitoring software allows us to manage our power usage. We are able to time our consumption to our solar input.  

[spacesailor]

My take on what I read, was,

Your solar system will be switched off, so it Does Not supply your house, making you pay for all of your power !.

spacesailor