The climate change debate continues.

[red750]

Here I go again, devil's advocate if you will. This graph from my friend Wikipedia compares the CO2 pollution by country. It has been said before, but compared to the US which is approximately the same area as Australia, our output is miniscule. Reducing our output by 50% would have negligible impact on the world situation. Like baling out the Titanic with a soup spoon.

 

[octave]

Jerry made many of the points I wanted to make saving me the trouble. I am interstate and on a handheld device and thumb typing is slow for me.

 

It is interesting that the doubters talk about climate change hysteria and then go on to present “renewable/low emission energy” hysteria. At this stage transition to new tech is happening gradually.  I believe Australia’s target is 43% by 2030. 
Judith says we should be researching alternative sources of energy. Isn’t that exactly what we are doing?  
 

It is interesting that she only refers to solar and wind as if these are the only renewables/low emission alternatives.

 

 

[octave]

5 minutes ago, red750 said:

Here I go again, devil's advocate if you will. This graph from my friend Wikipedia compares the CO2 pollution by country. It has been said before, but compared to the US which is approximately the same area as Australia, our output is miniscule. Reducing our output by 50% would have negligible impact on the world situation. Like baling out the Titanic with a soup spoon.

 

It is true that Australia’s emissions are dwarfed by the US and China. If all of the countries whose total emissions are low compared to the higher emissions countries are added together they make a substantial total.  If I roll down my car window and throw out a piece of rubbish does it matter? Well it does if everyone does it.

 

Apart from that as the countries who contribute the biggest total of co2 and other pollutants clean up their act and adopt new technologies are we going to stay an outpost of old technology?   
 

An observer of the Wright brothers first flight would have found it difficult to imagine that several decades later airliners would be carrying millions of passengers a year and that an aircraft could carry hundreds of passenger’s per flight.  I imagine they would have thought it not possible to build enormous airports throughout the world and supply all these airliners with fuel.  We have not reached the end of technology.  Someone in 1899 exclaimed the “everything the can be invented has been invented.”  Obviously this was short sighted.  

[Bruce Tuncks]

My understanding is that Australia is one of the worst PER_CAPITA polluters in the world. Being of small total population does indeed make the total small, but not compared with other countries of equivalent population. It makes no sense to ask big countries to break into smaller ones for the purpose of CO2 emissions...  it will not help.

I say again that we don't need to be too pessimistic... nuclear power plus CO2 extraction, or maybe planet-cooling aerosols, or both, can get us through if we really want to.

I reckon though that things have to get much worse before the average doofus will agree there is a problem which will need sacrifices to solve . But they may well get the solution wrong, and decide the problem is caused by greenies or catholics or some other irrelevant lot.

[facthunter]

We have to do our share. We are big energy junkies and will not be gaining in Pacific Ocean friends by saying what we do doesn't matter. Carbon fuels will cause wars by competing for them and are FINITE anyhow so will get more expensive.  Nev

[old man emu]

I wonder what climate scientists would deduce from observations over their lifetimes if they and their 21st Century were time-travelled back to about 1320, and their knowledge of the 21st Century climate was erased from them. From about 1320 the Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of regional cooling, particularly pronounced in the North Atlantic region (probably only known there due to accessible records). It followed the Medieval Warm Period (MWP), also known as the Medieval Climate Optimum or the Medieval Climatic Anomaly, was a time of warm climate in the North Atlantic region that lasted from c. 950 to c. 1250. The Little Ice Age has been conventionally defined as extending from the 16th to the 19th centuries, but some experts prefer an alternative timespan from about 1300 to about 1850. (The source of Dicken's wintry scenes in A Christmas Carol.

 

Based on their observations of climate from 1320 to 1370, would these 21st Century trained climate scientists be warning King Edward III of the impending doom of reduced global temperatures?

 

[pmccarthy]

Jerry, thank you for taking the time to address this in detail. Your points about the lack of detail and poor logic in places are well made. I have a line of 'skeptic' books on my shelf, and much more material on my computer, from people I respect like Ian Plimer and Bjorn Lomberg. Mostly they are geologists. I really don't know how to get their messages across to people who accept the 'consensus' narrative, so I look for easy to digest presentations like Judith Curry's.

[red750]

  

[facthunter]

Not very scientific. What about tides? and predicted extremes of weather being more frequent. it's the trend not the weather. Atmospheric CO2 has gone from 280- PPM to over 420 PPM . Even the oil companies know it's happening AND Insurance companies  Deniers are increasingly in a diminishing minority..  Ice cores tell us what's happened.. WHEN the ice melts from the Himalayan Mountains, what happens then to over 3 billion people who depend on the annual melt from it?  Nev

[octave]

Memes are not science.  I believe it is about 15% of cobalt comes from mines with dubious practices.

 

Battery manufacturers are reducing the amount of cobalt in batteries and expect to move to cobalt free batteries soon. In fact half of all Teslas now manufactured have LFP batteries which are cobalt free.

 

Cobalt is not used solely in EV batteries. Are we just as concerned with the use of cobalt in car airbags or as catalysts in the petroleum and chemical industries, cemented carbides, diamond tools and many more things not to mention our phones an PCs?

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by octave

[octave]

The sea level rise meme says the sea level has not changed one bit in 120 years. The top picture shows the same coastline. We don’t know though at what phase of the tide these 2 pictures were taken at.

 Here is a link to CSIRO https://www.cmar.csiro.au/sealevel/sl_hist_last_decades.html

 

The data comes from NASA and the French space agencies Topex/Poseidon satellites. If people think the data is incorrect I would like to know whether people believe NASA and CSIRO are scientifically incompetent or they are deliberately presenting false information as part of some global conspiracy?

 

[spacesailor]

And we forget how HOT it was ,  prior to SNOWBALL EARTH. 

NOW that Snow is melting ! .

spacesailor

[red750]

The Prince and Princess of Wales took a commercial flight to a climate conference, while the Sussexes flew by private jet.

[nomadpete]

Whenever I run into one of those conspiracy nutters, I thank God that the earth is flat so I push them off the edge

[facthunter]

Surely WE can't be the only flat planet in the universe with a SUN going around it. ((Or does a new one come up  every day?)  Nev

[red750]

14 hours ago, nomadpete said:

I thank God that the earth is flat so I push them off the edge

I'll keep my eye out for you if I get near the edge.

[facthunter]

Religion proves many will believe anything.. Nev

[nomadpete]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Religion proves many will believe anything.. Nev

Do you really believe that?

Edited December 4, 2022 by nomadpete

[Jerry_Atrick]

Religiously!

[facthunter]

Well, they want to get them young when they are most impressionable , The gatekeepers of heaven have a lot of control. I used to be a real godbotherer.   Nev

[nomadpete]

You must be my opposite.

I couldn't be bothered at all.

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

I used to be a real godbotherer.   Nev

 

[facthunter]

 I was forced to go.    Nev

[nomadpete]

I was fortunate in that I didn't suffer any long lasting guilt issues when I decided that the religions just don't cut it for me. My big decision was caused by our local presbyterian minister. We young teens had managed to get the poorest, dirtiest scruffian from our school and we got him all cleaned up (well, he did have a wash and put on his least scruffy teeshirt). He even found two matching flip flops, and thus wore his sunday best to come to church with us.

At the end of the service as we filed out of the church, this minister said "We don't your kind in the house of god".

 

That did it for me. In one sentence, he created half a dozen lifelong sceptical athiests.

 

Sorry. Just realised my post belongs in the other thread. Meanwhile. Back to the warm world of climate science.

Edited December 4, 2022 by nomadpete

[facthunter]

I was in Barcelona in '81 and the church had on the door." This Place is the House of God. IF you aren't properly dressed , Do not come in"  Would Christ  OK that?  Nev

[red750]

I guess you could say I had a real mixed bag.

 

I was raised Presbyterian and went to the Pressy Sunday School.My grandfather on my mother's side was an Elder of the Presbyterian Church. In my teens, I was a member of the local PFA - Presbyterian Fellowship of Australia.

 

In Deniliquin, I attended the Salvation Army citidel, because we lived on the outskirts of town, and they provided a bus service.

 

My mother's step-brother was a Methodist minister, and concelebrated with my wife's Catholic priest at our wedding in the Catholic church she had attended. My kids went to the local Catholic primary school. The parish priest invited me to be on the school council, even though I was not Catholic. My wife prevailed upon me to convert to the Catholic church.

 

When I was retrenched shortly after the Commercial Bak merged with BNSW to form Westpac, my local priest gave me a job in gthe parish office and helped feed my family for about 12 months, and found me another job with one of the senior parishoners who ran a car radio importing business.

 

It would now be a bit more than 20 years since I went into any church, other than for a couple of funerals and my wifes memorial service.