The climate change debate continues.

[facthunter]

That's a very old and long run argument by the Coal and Gas lobby HERE who want to keep making money by exporting both and who totally controlled the Morrison Government and the Nationals in particular.  Look at our disgraceful episode WE put on at Glasgow.  The rapidly INCREASING Price of both make NEW coal and gas FAR too expensive when compared with clean energy Here and with prices due to rise more into the future and Carbon capture a never achieved and expensive Deception to further complicate the equation and muddy the waters. No country in the world has better conditions for Green energy than WE do. WE still get instances of BLACK Lung disease here. The best way to sequester Carbon is leave it in the ground where it's not doing any damage.  Nev

Edited April 30, 2023 by facthunter

[Jerry_Atrick]

I know, Marty... But sighing is not enough.

 

@red750, I know  you're just passing on what is sent to you, but think of this: Why would you want Australia to be a follower and not a leader? The more we can develop in a renewable world, the better we have to captialise on it. Sadly, the Libs of the past 13 years or so have been in the pockets of various shady operators, and we have largly lost any advantage we would have had with existing renewable technology, but ther will be more.

 

Regardless, let's start with the obvious. Coal and fossil fuels are now expensive because they are harder to find and extract these days (well, coal not so.. but others definitely). But renewables will make things cheaper. Now, on a state pension, I would think you would want things to be cheaper: https://reneweconomy.com.au/firmed-wind-and-solar-still-much-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-even-with-inflation-says-csiro/.  Sadly, the press don't get much advertising revenue from renewables at the moment, so they will spin crap to their advertisers' benefit. So, if you want to keep coal and expensive electricity rather than go renewables and cheaper electrcity, don't complain that it is expensive to live. With renewables, there would not be an increase in electrcitiy due to gas and coal prices.

 

I don't know where the meme fartist got their facts from, but quoting some numbers without context doesn't really tell the whole picture. Firstly, the EU remains committed to no coal generation by 2030. I was a bit surprised to hear they are building 27 new plants; I think they have brought some out of mothballs because of the war. Nor can I find any evidence that Turkey is planning 93 more plants. In fact, they have been reducing coal generation according to S&P, in 2019, Turkey has been shrinking its coal reserves, and the latest I could find evidence for their resrugence in coal was in 2013: https://www.airclim.org/acidnews/massive-dash-coal-turkey

 

With South Africa - again, I can't find evidence that they are intending to build 24 more coal fire power stations; they certainly rely on coal today, but they are decidedly moving away from it: https://blogs.worldbank.org/africacan/south-africa-leading-way-toward-low-carbon-economy-and-resilient-society. India, however, will probabky be adding  more coal plants as they have and approximate shortage of 28GW in power. 446 more plants seems excessive though: https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-may-need-up-28-gw-new-coal-fired-plants-advisory-body-2022-09-12/

 

Phillipines: https://news.mongabay.com/2020/11/philippines-declares-no-new-coal-plants-but-lets-approved-projects-through/. That may have changed, but I can't find anything.

 

This is the latest I can find on South Korea.. https://www.enerdata.net/publications/daily-energy-news/south-koreas-kepco-will-increase-coal-fired-generation-until-end-2022.html

 

 

The latest I could find for Japan is 22 new ones (not 45): https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/japan-new-coal-power-plant-climate-change-tokyo-a9316271.html

 

The latest data I could find on China is 100 new power stattions: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-new-coal-plants-set-become-costly-second-fiddle-renewables-2023-03-22/,  but they also plan to increase renewable generation by 50% to trillions of GW/h.. so coal is veryt much a stop gap fopr them: https://www.efchina.org/Blog-en/blog-20220905-en

 

Although, it is conceded that China's increase in coal has offset the rest of the world's reductions. But oveall coal fired generation will be reduced but we still want Australia to tbe the Joffa of the world and stick with it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

But . renewables will increase in price , as the rooftop panels degrade & household's Want more

KWH's for their ever Increasing usage. 

Also the provider's will have ever Increasing control over our output. ( switching it off to Make you use their grid power )  .

spacesailor

 

[Marty_d]

Panels are getting cheaper Spacey. If you spend $20k on a solar and battery system which is enough for most households,  and you were spending  $800 a quarter on power before,  then it pretty much pays for itself in 6 - 7 years. Panels should work for about 20 years or more so the last 13 save you $40,000 +.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Renewables are not limited to power generation at home; think wind farms, power farms, etc. You can still get your electricity from the grid, but there is no need for it to risk in cost based on commodity prices. Silicone is the one of the most abundtant elements on earth and makes up most of the PV cells.

 

Once the fossil fuel is burnt, that's it.. no more.. Solar panel recycling is already a thing: https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/solar-panel-recycling

 

There are many more, and as the demand grows, the industry and the technology grow.. Truly renewable, then.

 

Again, we can stay in the dark ages, or move forward with a brighter future.. our choice.

[Jerry_Atrick]

37 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

But . renewables will increase in price , as the rooftop panels degrade & household's Want more

KWH's for their ever Increasing usage. 

Also the provider's will have ever Increasing control over our output. ( switching it off to Make you use their grid power )  .

spacesailor

 

Renewables are not limited to power generation at home; think wind farms, power farms, etc. You can still get your electricity from the grid, but there is no need for it to risk in cost based on commodity prices. Silicone is the one of the most abundtant elements on earth and makes up most of the PV cells.

 

And if you are generating from home, no need to pay anyone anything once the system is in. The price is fixed to the depreciation of the solar cells.

 

Once the fossil fuel is burnt, that's it.. no more.. Solar panel recycling is already a thing: https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/solar-panel-recycling

 

There are many more, and as the demand grows, the industry and the technology grow.. Truly renewable, then.

 

Again, we can stay in the dark ages, or move forward with a brighter future.. our choice.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[onetrack]

Peters "infographic" about the number of coal-fired power stations is factually inaccurate, especially as related to "planned new coal power stations".

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/worldwide-coal-plants-claim-is-inaccurate/

 

I can only find a list of approximately 17 coal-fired power stations in SOUTH Africa - not 79! Maybe the originator of the infographic confused AFRICA with SOUTH Africa?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_South_Africa

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by onetrack

[old man emu]

I can't find the reference, but I heard today that the amount of electricity being generated through solar power in Australia over the past year is well above expectations. Perhaps we are seeing something similar to the 1970s petrol crisis which basically caused the extinction of the Yank Tank and lead to the development of the small capacity, high efficiency cars we have today. 

 

If bought electricity gets to expensive, the people will take advantage of developing technology and generate their own.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I saw something like that, too OME.. I think it was in one of the Fairfax papers..

 

 

[facthunter]

There's no Fairfax Papers anymore. They have been sold to other Interests who didn't continue the truth  commitment Fairfax had.  Nev

[kgwilson]

In the march quarter the spot price for Electricity in South Australia and Victoria went negative a number of times as there was so much generation from renewables. That makes coal fired coal super expensive as the plants can't be slowed or stopped and the costs (and polluants) contine as normal.

 

"The low level of demand, and the big increase in large scale wind and solar meant that the number of negative or zero pricing events increased dramatically.

These zero and negative pricing events occurred in one in eight dispatch periods across the main grid in the first quarter, and in more than half the time in the daylight hours in South Australia and Victoria.

Between 9am and 5pm, wholesale electricity prices in South Australia, which averaged nearly 80 per cent wind and solar over the quarter, were zero or negative in 60 per cent of dispatch intervals, and 55 per cent of intervals in Victoria, which has the next strongest share of wind and solar in its grid."

https://reneweconomy.com.au/record-wind-and-solar-deliver-lower-prices-loosen-coal-and-gas-dominance-over-grid/

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, there is not much hope in stopping climate change. Some of the countries ( eg china ) will be badly effected by climate change. I think that India is the worst-placed country....  well, when they come looking for assistance, we sure know what to tell them huh.

I think more and more these days that us lot lived in the best of times in the best of countries, but all good things come to an end.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh we sure need cheap storage of electricity.

It doesn't have to be light or small, but it needs to be cheap.

 

[willedoo]

I've often wondered about the future of oil considering there will likely be a long transition period. Not referring to fuel oil (petrol, diesel etc.) as that will be largely reduced by electric power. It will be a long time before plant based plastics take over from petroleum based products, but it will probably happen once the logistics and economics are in place.

 

The other part of the story is the lubricants and heavy crude based products like grease, bitumen roads and the like. Heavy crude products will probably be the last to go. That brings up the issue of economy of scale. A big reorganisation of the industry will have to occur, and the surviving few oil companies will explore and produce in specific areas that will provide those grades of crude.

 

Australian oil exploration will likely grind to a halt at some stage as most of our oil is old and light; more suited to fuel oil. A lot of it straight out of the ground will run a diesel engine with the right filters. The crude I've seen had a kerosene like consistency, light black with a greenish tinge to it.

[spacesailor]

In my suburb,  people could only afford the Small solar installation,  now years down the track!  I see a lot of replacing, of those dirty old panels,  with shinier &  larger array 's .

For the same dollars as they paid for the original. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

They are about 1/3rd of what I paid 15 years ago.  WE are energy "Junkies" really.   Hate to think of what I have burned in aeroplanes.   Nev

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

WE are energy "Junkies" really.   Hate to think of what I have burned in aeroplanes.

Probably 9/10ths of 5/8ths of F all when you compare yourself to, say a shopping centre owner.

[spacesailor]

Love these Fractions  .ONLY A TENTH ( of an inch ) IN IT .

A very fine tennon saw cut

How good is that ! .

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Jets use a lot of fuel OME.  Nev

[Marty_d]

But to be fair Nev, you'd have to divide by the number of pax / amount of cargo.

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Marty_d said:

But to be fair Nev, you'd have to divide by the number of pax / amount of cargo.

The same applies to road vehicles: the MB bus that I drive burns 9.3litres/100km, shared by nine seniors. That’s not much more than my 4WD, shared by two of us. 

[spacesailor]

My Delica had seven seats .

what a waste . Much better Now with only two .

And the BED . LoL

Not many people realise how much Weight is in those Spare seat's .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

You pay more for the insurance too with extra seats. .  Nev

[spacesailor]

And , having five removed ,Must mean I need a new compliance plate .

Without any reduction in insurance or registration. 

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

Do the cops count the number of seats over there?