Old Koreelah Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 And there's too many asleep in the back row. That woke me up! I have the solution to all our crime problems. A bloke on the radio today was describing his work in rehabilitating criminals and preventing recidivism. His programmes involve a lot of self expression with music, art and drama. He claims no artist or musician is a criminal. I can think of a few exceptions, but I have some faith in the broad sweep of his theory. Soothing the savage beast makes us all safer. A huge proportion of America's young males, particularly blacks, are doing time, and I doubt many of them are the better for it. Australia needs a better approach. Preventing someone getting into crime is sure cheaper than locking him up. Governments penny pinch on education and training, but can always find money for more razor wire.
Kyle Communications Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 You've got a benevolent dictator in Clive Palmer, a conservative with a grudge against the LNP. What a fantastic combination! Palmer is unstable and has a god complex
Gnarly Gnu Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 A huge proportion of America's young males, particularly blacks, are doing time, and I doubt many of them are the better for it. We need a better approach. Preventing someone getting into crime is sure cheaper than locking him up. Government penny pinch on education and training, but can always find money for more razor wire. I agree. Welfare causes crime and breaks up families with tragic social consequences. Cut welfare back sharply to those that are not disabled or feeble and at the same time free up regulations that stifle small / single business operators so that folk can have a go.
fly_tornado Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 cutting the safety net and scrapping regulations has been done in America, hence the crime and corruption. There is a reason no one wants to invest in America any more. The low violent crime rate in Australia is primarily due to high wages and a working welfare system. Socialism works.
turboplanner Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 Ah, we've returned to George Bush, even though President Obama is into his second term, Australia with a Conservative Government, even though we don't have a Conservative party, a government which has its leader acting Presidential style, even though our government has no provisions to operate that way, and now someone telling us socialism works.
Old Koreelah Posted January 12, 2014 Posted January 12, 2014 ... and now someone telling us socialism works. It does. So does Capitalism. Each system has its advantages; the Soviets were impressive in public transport, medical and science. The Americans built up enviable living standards, freedoms and a culture of corporate giving we could learn from. Each system also produced lots of problems. I'd much rather have Australia's problems than America's. GG has a point "...cut welfare back sharply to those that are not disabled or feeble and at the same time free up regulations that stifle small / single business operators so that folk can have a go." ...but it's not that simple. We have plenty of welfare-dependent people (far fewer than some countries) but most lack the skills employers want. We need to get them into work, but also build those skills. Until governments are willing to spend the money to fix our education and training systems, we will always have kids falling thru the cracks. Our performance here is abysmal compared to scandinavian countries. They are the role-models we should be following, not the USA.
Teckair Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 .cut welfare back sharply to those that are not disabled How would you determine who is disabled? I know of quite a few people who are on disability pensions who should not be, it is a real problem with our system. There are people who think the world owes them a living and they have only only one ambition in life and that is to be on a disability pension, and guess who they vote for? ALP.
fly_tornado Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Old people are economically useless, they clog up the hospitals and the highways and don't produce anything of value, we should cut pensions for anyone with more than $50K in assets. I've been saying this for years.
Marty_d Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 The world has changed. There are no longer masses of unskilled jobs available. Who wants 300 people with shovels and pick-axes making roads when excavators and bulldozers do it far quicker and without workplace injuries? What we need are improvements in training and more accurate forecasting of what positions will need people in the future. No point pumping out 500 pharmacists a year when the market is saturated. There's also the issue of the location of work. I think government at all levels needs to be smarter when it comes to high welfare-dependent areas - figuring out what types of industries would fit the location, ensuring that appropriate education is accessible, and bringing it all together with the people looking for work. By the way there seems to be an assumption that people on welfare are happy to be on welfare (eg Teckair's contribution above). This is in the vast majority of cases simply not true. Newstart Allowance (single no dependents) is $250.50 a week. Have a think about the average rent in your area. Then have a look at your grocery bill. Not to mention car rego and running costs, medication, insurance, clothing, phone/internet and all the other bills you get. Could you live on that and at the same time look for work, write applications, ring employers, improve your education and do everything else to prepare yourself to get work? I know that the coalition is good at simple slogans with no thought or meaning, looks like it worked to get them elected and continues to resonate with their supporters.
Kyle Communications Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I have a different view. There are way too many bludgers on the system and half of my wife's relations are just that. I think we need to bring in a food stamps style of system BUT you still need to give them some monetary pension say $30.00 each so they have some sort of money. There MUST be housing for these people on the benefits system and this has to be subsidized on the utility side somehow but they use their stamp system to pay for those utilities. There MUST be training available to help people back into he workforce or some type of "work for the dole" scheme that if the person is doing or has done this for the required amount of time they get priority over someone who hasn't to be inline for jobs. This is not a easy issue at all and there would need to be a lot of work done on this to implement something...not necessarily as above but something like it. We need to give people and incentive to go out and find a job so you do need some system that pricks them in the bum to make them get off it yet does NOT disadvantage many people as there are always the exception to the rule. As far as this carers thing and medical pensions I think they must be more severely scrutinized as they are not now...I know at last 40 people who are on the dole or sickness benefits or carers pensions and maybe 2 of them have a valid reason...its not right as they know how to rort the system Mark
Kyle Communications Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 MartyD "The world has changed. There are no longer masses of unskilled jobs available. Who wants 300 people with shovels and pick-axes making roads when excavators and bulldozers do it far quicker and without workplace injuries?" Marty that's maybe what we do need to do....get the dole bludgers onto the shovel and picks and build more infrastructure....and this may give them the incentive to actually get some training and find another job. Work for the dole is must in my view and also it MUST be policed properly not like before when it was running..it was a joke then
Marty_d Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 MartyD "The world has changed. There are no longer masses of unskilled jobs available. Who wants 300 people with shovels and pick-axes making roads when excavators and bulldozers do it far quicker and without workplace injuries?" Marty that's maybe what we do need to do....get the dole bludgers onto the shovel and picks and build more infrastructure....and this may give them the incentive to actually get some training and find another job. Work for the dole is must in my view and also it MUST be policed properly not like before when it was running..it was a joke then I agree with you in one thing, we need a proper work for the dole system. However I don't think "makework" jobs using manual labour where machinery is normally used is the answer. If you want the people involved to become active participants and enthusiastic about the project, then give them work which will actually assist in getting them job ready. Of course, then you p*ss off both the businesses, who don't want free labour taking contracts away from them, and the unions, who don't want free labour taking work away from paid workers. So there's no political incentive to come up with a proper scheme.
SDQDI Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I agree 100% Kyle. I think that we should bring back a version of national service inasmuch as someone on the dole should be made to serve in the defence force in some way or another (obviously we can't expect everyone to be happy bearing arms but there are plenty of other jobs to be done and this would help in several ways, 1, these people would be getting training on the job which would make them more employable 2, gives something back to our country instead of just a blank check 3, actually gets them out of the house and doing something useful Now I know there are quiet a few people who are rightly on the disability pension but there is way to many rorting the system and they give people with a true disability a bad name. I know quiet a few disabled people who even though badly impaired still work as much as they can because they don't want to be a burden to the country and go on the pension (obviously some need the pension and are truly unable to work). Just my ten cents worth,
Methusala Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 "How would you determine who is disabled? I know of quite a few people who are on disability pensions who should not be, it is a real problem with our system. There are people who think the world owes them a living and they have only only one ambition in life and that is to be on a disability pension, and guess who they vote for? ALP." Teckair. We work in the disability employment sector. While it was once true that access to disability pension was relatively easy, presumably because it was a convenient place to have chronically unemployed (-able) people so they did not show on politically sensitive unemployment stats, this is no longer the case. There is a heap of long term pensioners in this system who are immovable due to political reality. The assertion that they vote for the ALP is , in our real experience, simply false! There have been effective programs in place for years now to place people with a disability in real jobs, supported where necessary by wage subsidies. This makes a life changing difference to many hundreds of thousands of ordinary Australians. I fear that ill informed opinions, such as that quoted above , could give a lazy govt the initiative to move against this scheme in the name of so-called EFFICIENCY.
Marty_d Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 "How would you determine who is disabled? I know of quite a few people who are on disability pensions who should not be, it is a real problem with our system. There are people who think the world owes them a living and they have only only one ambition in life and that is to be on a disability pension, and guess who they vote for? ALP." Teckair. We work in the disability employment sector. While it was once true that access to disability pension was relatively easy, presumably because it was a convenient place to have chronically unemployed (-able) people so they did not show on politically sensitive unemployment stats, this is no longer the case. There is a heap of long term pensioners in this system who are immovable due to political reality. The assertion that they vote for the ALP is , in our real experience, simply false! There have been effective programs in place for years now to place people with a disability in real jobs, supported where necessary by wage subsidies. This makes a life changing difference to many hundreds of thousands of ordinary Australians. I fear that ill informed opinions, such as that quoted above , could give a lazy govt the initiative to move against this scheme in the name of so-called EFFICIENCY. It would only be appropriate if they DID vote for the ALP, given that it was the ALP that brought in the National Disability Insurance Scheme.
fly_tornado Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Most unemployed, generally young and or unskilled, cost a fraction of what it costs to keep someone over 65. Seriously, old people are a huge economic drag on the budget and its only going to get worse. Force old people to move in with their kids like in the old days.
facthunter Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 It costs over $100k per annum, to keep a prisoner in a private GAOL that has no interest in rehabilitation in this country. It is one of the biggest growth activities on our economy. Does that make sense?. In America the blacks are far more likely to be there for economic reasons. (They rarely get a lawyer) and it cuts them off the voting register. There are plenty of other ways they are discouraged from voting. Doing a few things right socially will get results (education dental medical disability,etc) None of you know when you or someone near you will be affected by a disability. f t, your expressed attitude to old people is something you should be totally ashamed of. Civilised people respect the wisdom and contributions from of their older citizens and don't write them of as you do. Cut the pension off if they have more than 50k? These are people who have contributed taxes etc all their lives. What are they supposed to do then? It wouldn't even buy a caravan. Is your next step compulsory euthanasia? Free gas chambers for the useless old. After them what others will you want to pick on? Nev
Methusala Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I'll move in with my kids right after you move in with yours, Fly Tornado! Don
fly_tornado Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I value the contribution of all older people but retirement is a luxury we cannot afford with the current budget emergency. Cutting off the age pension is just a natural evolution of conservative policy. Its going to happen, the sooner the better, lower the taxes of working Australians, get the country moving forward. I should mention that I am not a conservative.
facthunter Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 Stop reading what you have been reading or you will turn into a fascist. Nev
fly_tornado Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 You don't have to be a fascist to appreciate conservative ideology but it helps.
fly_tornado Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I know but we can all see that the slightest provocation of the LNP and the pension is out.
Methusala Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 And how is that a good thing? An acquaintance told me of a visit to a US work place where there was a 90 year old African American sweeping the floor. When asked he said that this kept him in room and board as there was no pension for him. Question is what about similar people with no "understanding employer"? I'm no watermelon but...?
Marty_d Posted January 13, 2014 Posted January 13, 2014 I value the contribution of all older people but retirement is a luxury we cannot afford with the current budget emergency.Cutting off the age pension is just a natural evolution of conservative policy. Its going to happen, the sooner the better, lower the taxes of working Australians, get the country moving forward. I should mention that I am not a conservative. I know you're not a conservative, that's been obvious from some of your posts... but I'm with facthunter on this, we have to look after our oldies. Besides, look at all the uncounted things they do... grandparents do a hell of a lot of child care which doesn't get counted, they pass on their knowledge and experience, mentor younger folks, etc. In financial terms I think that compulsory superannuation does a hell of a lot to relieve the pension, there is a large percentage of oldies that only get a part pension or just the concession card because of their income. I will not get a pension when I retire (if I live that long) because I've been fortunate enough to have been employed at the same place for the last 25 years and have a good super scheme. But I will quite happily pay taxes to support those who retire with insufficient dosh to keep alive on. By the way, my mother at 81 is teaching English to a Thai woman, just because you're old doesn't mean you can't contribute.
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