Old Koreelah Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 You are right, Yenn. Democracy is the least worst form of government. When the UN was established there were moves for it to run a sort of world police force. The USA quickly quashed that idea. We could have had a real "man from UNCLE"! With our world awash with refugees, perhaps the most efficient way to spend our defence dollar is to avoid wars. Dictatorship may be undemocratic, but after Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Syria it seem the only way to hold some countries together.
facthunter Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 It's about making money or arguing over which of the various gods should be forced into your head under threat of death. Good luck with stopping the wars. Shouldn't be much to it. Everyone is sensible and reasonable about things. Nev
turboplanner Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Horsefeathers, I think you need to study something other than your own brand of press propaganda. The so-called "refugees" filtering in to Australia pay somewhere between $10,000 and $20,000 to get onto our land and in previous years about five years of free legal aid to find a loophole to stay here. They are not the desperate refugees we sometimes see, or they would stay in neighbouring countries where they could olive free of any threats made in their homeland. They just want to live here because of our freedoms and living standards. By paying these big some of money they were beating legitimate applicants who applied through the formal immigration system, but by far the biggest cost to us via our income tax was the free access to legal services for years. They don't struggle when they get out into the community either, I was served coffee by the owner of a Coffee Club franchise this morning, and many of them run successful businesses, which they used to run in their homeland. I got deeply with one group who were heavily persecuted in this area, and very quickly found that one of the religious leaders in charge of fundraising for them was also listed as a fundraiser in the US Mid West and other countries and was really a very rich jetsetter on our donations. In other cases when I checked back up the tree on stories about "part of the family trapped in Egypt or they would be murdered etc" I got the people top level political assistance and involvement for them, but when that happened we found all and I mean all the stories were fakes. Similarly our local police got involved, but finished up having to chase murder cases, theft, beat ups on our trains and other crimes we hadn't seen before. I'm in favour of the standard Government immigration procedure which for many years managed to keep an even spread of nationalities throughout the Country.
winsor68 Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Either you lack compassion or basic human decency to pull the "they spend $20k to get here so aren't genuine" line... Shows how easily people are led down the garden path...or that they are just plain stupid.
winsor68 Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Anyone notice Australia's population increase by half a million ldt year? No?
turboplanner Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 $20,000.00 would probably keep them in the Indonesian community for years; my point is these are rich, educated people who have found loopholes, and in terms of compassion and basic human decency are so cynical that they are prepared to risk the lives of their wives and children, knowing the risks.
turboplanner Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Anyone notice Australia's population increase by half a million ldt year? No? No, but the murder rate is going up in Melbourne - do we write the victims off, make them fend for themselves?
cscotthendry Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 ^ Thanks for making the thread funny again Scotty. In summary the Liberals are evil because they made your head explode.... OK they may be a little hopeless in some areas but see to many of us this just makes it all worthwhile! GG- yeah thanks for the "lighten up" heads up, I probably take the politics a bit too seriously. But you're right, they do make my head explode.......
metalman Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Either you lack compassion or basic human decency to pull the "they spend $20k to get here so aren't genuine" line...Shows how easily people are led down the garden path...or that they are just plain stupid. There's no doubting your political bent, I come from a little town in Qld where we had relatively small numbers of immigrants from Middle East areas, they seemed like fine people, good luck to them . Come to the Capitol cities and it's a different story, there are enclaves of different groups which in itself isn't a bad thing, the Greeks and Italians tended to stick together after WW2 but as they've made this place home their kids have become a part of us as a community( and the parents, some of the most scary patriots I've met are older wogs) . I was talking with someone today about this and the problem I see ,and it's principally a muslim thing, whenever a muslim gets on the telly calling for their religious laws to be enforced on us there is a deafening silence from the whole muslim community,,,,if there own country is so crook that they have to flee for their lives ,why then would you want to bring the very worst of your own country here. The muslim community isn't interested in becoming a part of Australian society ,they see us as the enemy, they see us as a people to be overcome and if not killed of then bred out, the day I see a couple of thousand Muslims marching against sharia law is the day I believe otherwise . Another interesting thing ,and I really don't know why this is , those who profess to be atheist will passionately attack and ridicule any of the Christian faiths but seem to rather quiet when it comes to the muslim cult, I've never really heard an atheist have a go at them for anything ,,,,,,although the threat of being beheaded or burnt alive might explain it a bit , nor is there much out cry over the way they treat there women, to me that is a lack of compassion, please don't offend, please don't say what is really on your mind you might offend them ,well their attitude to other people offends me and I'm not scared to say it . This is the people we are arguing over, there are exceptions but the people coming here illegally are mainly young ,male Muslims , someone mentioned the UK and how many people they take ,,,,they are beginning to pay a high cost for that, there is already parts of sharia law recognized there, sure for the moment it's all in house ,but how long before there are suburbs that a woman can't walk throwing unless she abides by the laws for that group, I wonder how compassionate some of us will be when studying Mohammed is on the school curriculum , or your local bottle shop is shut down , acid attacks on women are common place or when a young man has his head hacked off in the street in the name of allah ( again we hear nothing from the local muslim condemning this) so how about we stop being all polite and just say what we think, I do and as I've said I am far from racist ,,,,maybe I am a bigot though,,,,if I think something is foolish or I can see it'll be dangerous for my kids future then I'll say something,,,if that means I'm a bigot then so be it, talk about being led down the garden path,,,,,at the end of that path is a pretty miserable place, Europe and the UK are starting to feel that pain now from going down that path before us
Old Koreelah Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 I have reluctantly come to agree with much of what you say, MM. What do we do to avoid permanent ethnic enclaves which resist integration? Do we set immigration quotas for each ethnic group? Insist on a written commitment to respect current Australian laws and values? (Unlikely to work, because most problems seem to come from second generation youths, who we can't deport-they are citizens.) Should we rigorously control what is preached in religious centres? (Don't forget there are some pretty loopy Christian extremists; should they be watched as closely as Moslems are?) We have been lucky so far, and I believe that our authorities get a lot of quiet cooperation from the Islamic community, the vast majority of whom want a peaceful life. We love to bag our politicians, but I'm glad not to be in the hot seat on this one.
facthunter Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 I haven't seen too many atheists who think any god is any better than another. An atheist believes in no god. Extremists interpret parts of their religion selectively to suit their aims. Often their is nothing to back them up when the relevant scripts are consulted. Generally religion seems to be interpreted by men for men. Tend to be patriarchal in most cases. Nev
winsor68 Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 We forget it was only 60 years ago our grandparents thought the Greeks were dirty black worthless criminals who didn't mix... Even many of those left have forgotten...? Maybe it's true the good do die young...
winsor68 Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 I grew up in a small town too...I was fortunate to have met some amazing people who allowed me to leave th small town mentality behind...believe me I resisted but common sense and empathy finally won... It's impossible to put the blinders back on no matter it's appeal to my social standing.
kaz3g Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 No, but the murder rate is going up in Melbourne - And nearly all other forms of crime have decreased significantly. Victoria Police - Crime Statistics www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=782 Dec 20, 2013 - Victoria Police Crime Statistics Official Release is prepared for release in September by Corporate Statistics and includes statistical summaries ... View 2012/2013 crime statistics - (LGA) 2011/12 and 2012/13 We can't credit migrant communities with these good results just as we can't blame them for the bad. There are so few of them statistically speaking they make no difference to the data. As for comments about our tax burden growing hugely due to the amount of money being spent on legal aid for refugee migrants...what a crock! There is very little money available under the legal aid program and only a fraction of that goes to migrant issues. Most of our legal aid money ( more than 90%) goes on family law and criminal law matters and the overwhelming numbers involved in those are of European extraction. This is what I do for a living so it touches a raw nerve with me. I'm currently overwhelmed with cries for help from people in my community whose lives have been touched by the methamphetamine epidemic sweeping our nation. It is a scourge like we haven't experienced before because, unlike opiates which are downers, ice is an extraordinary upper that is hugely addictive and irreversibly damaging to neuron receptors in the brain. Ice is a major factor in DV; in thefts and burglaries, and in assaults. It is used in the Caucasian and Aboriginal communities, not the African or sub-Continent ones. It is distributed by OMC's with links to corrupt police, not by Islamic extremists. I agree that economic refugees should be charged for services and sent back but, if there is any doubt, I'd rather a hundred of them stayed rather than one genuine refugee in fear of his/her life was sent back in error. People here should perhaps Stick to aviation topics where hopefully they speak from a more enlightened base. Kaz
skeptic36 Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 Yes, perhaps the stats say that the numbers are not causing any measurable problems ATM. Maybe that is because we make it difficult for them when they arrive, when it was made easier for them under the previous government the arrivals increased accordingly and that is the reason we need border security. One of the things that makes us the lucky country is the moat we have around the joint, countries in Europe aren't so lucky, and look at the mess they are in.
kgwilson Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 None of this is funny. It is all about prejudice and intolerance and taking an extremist minority as the accepted norm. WAKE UP. Why is it that we are considered a racist country by many other nations and people around the world. We seem to be obsessed with so called Asylum seekers. Did Italy become a different country when for 6 months they got over 10000 refugees a week fleeing the Lybian revolution. What religion were these? Italy never even considered offshore processing. I could go on but I fear that the entrenched opinions of some will never change.
cscotthendry Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 ........I could go on but I fear that the entrenched opinions of some will never change. Quite so. "Believers" are fact-proof.
Old Koreelah Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 You None of this is funny. It is all about prejudice and intolerance and taking an extremist minority as the accepted norm. WAKE UP. Why is it that we are considered a racist country by many other nations and people around the world. We seem to be obsessed with so called Asylum seekers. Did Italy become a different country when for 6 months they got over 10000 refugees a week fleeing the Lybian revolution. What religion were these? Italy never even considered offshore processing. I could go on but I fear that the entrenched opinions of some will never change. You are quite right, KG. As a rich nation we could take in huge numbers of refugees, as we did post WWII. That influx of new people was also resisted strongly at first, but Australians adapted and enjoyed an economic boom. This could all happen again, if handled carefully. Unfortunately a few realities would get in the way. • We would need a strong, charismatic leader capable of convincing the nation to accept enormous change. Kevin had some of those qualities, but if even he couldn't hold it together during relatively unchallenging times, what hope in a national metamorphosis? • We are running out of resources to accommodate people in the style we are accustomed to. We would need to convince most people to live in block of flats with no backyards, recycle water and waste and use public transport. Good luck with that one. • We would have to accept religious enclaves and very likely some features of Sharia law. • Australia has gained much from immigration. There are aspects of Islamic cultures which Australia might benefit from - as long as we could pick which bits to to embrace and which to reject. I doubt that is likely to happen. • The "prejudice and intolerance" of which you speak is not confined to older Australians, but deeply ingrained in many of the cultures coming to live here. That may be the biggest problem.
pudestcon Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 Why is this in the 'Aviation Laughter' section? It should be in the 'Off Topic' section. Nothing to do with aviation, and nothing to do with laughter. Pud
fly_tornado Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 A CEO, an LNP voter and a refugee are at a table with 12 biscuits. The CEO takes 11 & says "Hey, the refugee wants to steal your biscuit."
turboplanner Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 As for comments about our tax burden growing hugely due to the amount of money being spent on legal aid for refugee migrants...what a crock! There is very little money available under the legal aid program and only a fraction of that goes to migrant issues. Most of our legal aid money ( more than 90%) goes on family law and criminal law matters and the overwhelming numbers involved in those are of European extraction. This is what I do for a living so it touches a raw nerve with me. People here should perhaps Stick to aviation topics where hopefully they speak from a more enlightened base. Thanks Kaz, perhaps you should take a look at these links - $60 million dollars is hardly petty cash. From memory, before the Howard government stopped onshore processing the lawyers were stringing out the process over five years and the cost to us was $1 million dollars per refugee. Refugee Legal costs paid by us the taxpayers http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/taxpayers-will-fork-out-at-least-60-million-in-free-legal-advice-for-asylum-seekers-this-year/story-e6freuy9-1226296395878 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-31/coalition-would-stop-funding-immigration-advice-for-asylum-seek/4926666 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/legal-aid-cost-rocks-the-boat/story-e6frf7jo-1226170057728 http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2012-2013/AustGovAssistRefugees For others who want to non biased statistics, take a look at these links State and Territory Migration summary report 30 June 2013 http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/immigration-update/state-territory-summary-2013.pdf Asylum Statistics Australia – March Quarter 2013 http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf Boat arrivals in Australia since 1976 – Parliament of Australia http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/BoatArrivals Refugee Legal costs paid by us the taxpayers http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/taxpayers-will-fork-out-at-least-60-million-in-free-legal-advice-for-asylum-seekers-this-year/story-e6freuy9-1226296395878 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-31/coalition-would-stop-funding-immigration-advice-for-asylum-seek/4926666 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/legal-aid-cost-rocks-the-boat/story-e6frf7jo-1226170057728
metalman Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 You You are quite right, KG. As a rich nation we could take in huge numbers of refugees, as we did post WWII. That influx of new people was also resisted strongly at first, but Australians adapted and enjoyed an economic boom. This could all happen again, if handled carefully. Unfortunately a few realities would get in the way. • We would need a strong, charismatic leader capable of convincing the nation to accept enormous change. Kevin had some of those qualities, but if even he couldn't hold it together during relatively unchallenging times, what hope in a national metamorphosis? • We are running out of resources to accommodate people in the style we are accustomed to. We would need to convince most people to live in block of flats with no backyards, recycle water and waste and use public transport. Good luck with that one. • We would have to accept religious enclaves and very likely some features of Sharia law. • Australia has gained much from immigration. There are aspects of Islamic cultures which Australia might benefit from - as long as we could pick which bits to to embrace and which to reject. I doubt that is likely to happen. • The "prejudice and intolerance" of which you speak is not confined to older Australians, but deeply ingrained in many of the cultures coming to live here. That may be the biggest problem. Mate I understand what your saying with immigration, and I'm all for it, this is where things get muddied, I say a big NO to people coming illegally, but I'm all for immigration, but the scary thing is what your saying about accepting religious laws, really, what about the separation of church and state, maybe we can get a few kooky catholic laws back on the table ( please no) , what laws should we have then, cutting off hands for theft ,if a woman is raped we stone her as an adulterer ,maybe executing homosexuals, don't know about you but I wouldn't like being herding in for prayers five times a day, how about my wife getting beaten in front me for not covering herself , like I said I'm amazed that the non religious seem to just go with the Moslem thing so easily,,personally I see it as gutless, sometimes the truth is offensive ,but not nearly as sickening as "political correctness " being used as an excuse to say nothing,,,,I don't care what colour you are ,even your religion doesn't offend me till it gets shoved in my face, I am bigoted though, if I see something that will harm me ,my family and friends or my country I do not care if I offend you I will say something. Like I said ,if I've written anything that is not factual ,please say so,you may not like it ,but have I been false,,,,,,,
facthunter Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 When you talk money with national commitments/obligations quoting it as a % of something like GDP puts it into context. When someone wants to increase something , they quote it this way. When they want to reduce it they use words like millions, which won't even build a Km of freeway. Our current attitude it overseas aid is indicative of our lousiness and mean spirit while increasing breaks for mining companies most of whom are overseas to absolutely stuff this country for a few years prosperity for a few . Nev
Bandit12 Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 Why is this in the 'Aviation Laughter' section? It should be in the 'Off Topic' section. Nothing to do with aviation, and nothing to do with laughter. Pud Originally meant as a joke and not to cause intense and serious debate Pud - just ended up that way. Perhaps time the mods moved the relevant debate to off topic?
fly_tornado Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 Off-shore processing is costing $1.2B a year. thats some serious racism Is Australia the only Pacific/South East Asian nation to have concentration camps?
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